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Topic: Moncrieff Sinclair (Read 887 times)
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mahatmacoat
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 31
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi All,
can somebody please check for a birth record for me in Fife, possibly
Auchtermuchty, It's for a Moncrieff Sinclair b circa 1830-1831.
I have him on the 1851 census living in Dysart, he gives his age as 21 and
birthplace as Auchtermuchty, i can find nothing?, neither can i find him on any
census after 1851, or a death for him.
can anyone suggest anything?? kind regards, Rab.
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daval57
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3112
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Nothing obvious on SP. No doubt you've tried alternative spellings with Soundex. I've been trying Sinklar (how I found one of my Sinclairs), St Clair, Sinkler, etc.
There is a Charles Hope Sinclair born 1828 in Leslie, Fife, son of George Sinclair and Mary Temple.
From 1881 census, Charles had a son Moncrieff bc1862.
Possible that Charles is a brother to Moncrieff and using family name for his son.
Just throwing this at you as another avenue to perhaps pursue.
Dave
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------------------- FORREST (Glasgow, Stirlingshire, Dunbartonshire) BORTHWICK (Midlothian) ROONEY (Glasgow and Co Down, Co Antrim) ANDERSON (Moray, Caithness, Glasgow) FORTUNE (East Lothian) BARKER (Midlothian / East Lothian) SIVES / SIBBES and variations (East Lothian) ROCHEAD /ROCHEID and variations (Dunbartonshire) OR VISIT MY SITE FOR MORE NAMES http://daval57.tribalpages.com/ |
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mahatmacoat
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 31
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Dave, thanks very much for your reply and your absolutely spot on!!
Charles Hope Sinclair did have a brother called Moncrieff,
and yes also a son, your intuition is remarkable!!.
Where people born around this time not always given a birth record do you know??, Both Moncrieff's older brothers have one, so why not Him??
I'm Beggining to wonder if there might be some scandle at the back of this!
I'm going to Fife next week for a couple of nights, i wish i knew where i might
get some info on this while i'm there, any idea's Dave?.
kind regards Rab (Nottingham)
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daval57
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3112
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Hi Rab,
Just glancing at this quickly as I get ready to go out the door.
I'll get back to you later once I take this in again. I need to refresh my memory as I've been working on something else (all night!).
Dave
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------------------- FORREST (Glasgow, Stirlingshire, Dunbartonshire) BORTHWICK (Midlothian) ROONEY (Glasgow and Co Down, Co Antrim) ANDERSON (Moray, Caithness, Glasgow) FORTUNE (East Lothian) BARKER (Midlothian / East Lothian) SIVES / SIBBES and variations (East Lothian) ROCHEAD /ROCHEID and variations (Dunbartonshire) OR VISIT MY SITE FOR MORE NAMES http://daval57.tribalpages.com/ |
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daval57
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3112
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OK Rab.
Firstly, thanks for the compliment but, with the slightly unusual forename, I didn't have too much difficulty coming to the earlier conclusion.
Secondly, just because this is a long post, don't get your hopes up.
Bear with me. I hope you follow my train of thought.......
Now, here's a huge leap of faith which I considered last night. There are 4 later births in Leslie to a George Sinclair and May Heron.
1834 Alexander
1836 Mary
1838 Agnes
1843 John
I've looked for and cannot find a death for Mary Temple/Sinclair on SP.
Possibly she died before 1855.
Could she possibly have died and George re-married May Heron? Told you it was a giant leap of faith!
Depending on when Mary died, either she or May Heron could be Moncrieff's mother. Perhaps Mary died in childbirth or soon after and Moncrieff was never christened / baptised.
Even if George did not re-marry, Mary's death in or just after childbirth could explain lack of record of Moncrieff's birth.
I looked for George's death. The latest he could have been born was say 1810, given that his first son, Alexander was born 1826. I've assumed George died in Fife. So, I searched for George Sinclair (+Soundex) deaths in Fife aged between 44 (youngest he could be in 1855) and 120 (reasonable assumption  ). There are only 5, 2 can be ruled out immediately as they are too young, 1 was born c1805 but it's not him (wife was Helen) and there are 2 whose age is unrecorded. I haven't looked at them. If neither of them is your George, then it seems he died prior to 1855 too.
Have you ever been able to find death for Mary or George? If not, you could ask someone to look for MI's.
Do you know when son Alexander died? Another supposition - if Alexander died young (prior to 1834), maybe the name was re-used in 1834 IF the George that married May Heron is one and the same.
That's about as far as my mind can take it and there are a heck of a lot of assumptions in all this. Might give you some ideas though.
Short answer to your question about birth records is, No.
As far as research facilities in Fife itself is concerned, pass. I was in St Andrews Information Bureau earlier this year and picked up a few leaflets / pamphlets about family research in Fife but unfortunately I can't locate them.
There is an LDS facility in Kirkcaldy but I doubt you would get any more there than is on IGI.
There is a Fife FHS in Methil but according to their site, there are no meetings in Dec or Jan, whether they are active at all in these months, I don't know.
Fife FHS site is here: http://www.fifefhs.org/index.htm
It lists various resources which I've not looked at in detail. I was hoping someone with more local knowledge would have joined the thread.
Sorry, for such a long post, I'm adding nothing conclusive but perhaps I've given you some ideas and not just muddied the waters.
Good luck.
Dave
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------------------- FORREST (Glasgow, Stirlingshire, Dunbartonshire) BORTHWICK (Midlothian) ROONEY (Glasgow and Co Down, Co Antrim) ANDERSON (Moray, Caithness, Glasgow) FORTUNE (East Lothian) BARKER (Midlothian / East Lothian) SIVES / SIBBES and variations (East Lothian) ROCHEAD /ROCHEID and variations (Dunbartonshire) OR VISIT MY SITE FOR MORE NAMES http://daval57.tribalpages.com/ |
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daval57
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3112
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Sorry Rab,
Forgot another obvious line of enquiry.
Had a look at 1851 census for George.
The only George and Mary is George and Mary Heron. Interestingly, Mary is recorded as Mary Heron, not Mary Sinclair. Unmarried?
No George with any Mary 1861 onwards.
1861 census Mary Heron living with half brother in Dysart.
Back to SP.
Mary Temple / George Sinclair narried Edinburgh 1826.
No record of marriage pre 1855 of May / Mary Heron to George Sinclair.
No record of marriage post 1855 of May / Mary to George Sinclair.
Only likely death of Mary Heron - 1912 Mary Ann Heron age 83 (wife of William Stirling, minister).
One other thought.... Mary Temple has left George.
Searched for Moncrieff Temple birth - nothing.
Searched for Moncrieff Heron birth - nothing.
Dave
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------------------- FORREST (Glasgow, Stirlingshire, Dunbartonshire) BORTHWICK (Midlothian) ROONEY (Glasgow and Co Down, Co Antrim) ANDERSON (Moray, Caithness, Glasgow) FORTUNE (East Lothian) BARKER (Midlothian / East Lothian) SIVES / SIBBES and variations (East Lothian) ROCHEAD /ROCHEID and variations (Dunbartonshire) OR VISIT MY SITE FOR MORE NAMES http://daval57.tribalpages.com/ |
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jac2
RootsChat Member
Posts: 194
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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hi rab/dave 
local knowledge already here me! let me know which part of fife your going to and i will let you know. one place you must go to is kirkcaldy main library. right next to the train station. all oprs for fife plus all available census returns for fife plus from c1830 local newspapers. and much more
jacci
first another grandchild for george and mary
George SINCLAIR
address Dysart,St Clairtown
date of burial 23 Feb 1858
age 2weeks
son of Charles Sinclair
OPR OPR 426-8
George SINCLAIR
address Dysart,St Clairtown
date of death 22 Feb 1858
date of burial 23 Feb 1858
age 2weeks
son of Charles S\Margaret Simpso
OPR OPR426-8 & Stat.Reg Old Parochial Registers
rab you said mary temple was born in north leith
heres what i believe to be her parents and siblings from sp. mary must have been an important name to this family.
1) 03/01/1802 TEMPLE CECIL
GEORGE TEMPLE/MARY TEMPLE
FR2696
Female
Leith North EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN
2) 01/04/1809 TEMPLE ESTHER
GEORGE TEMPLE/MARY TEMPLE
FR2780
Female
Leith North EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN
3) 25/01/1811 TEMPLE GEORGE
GEORGE TEMPLE/MARY TEMPLE FR2799
Male
Leith North EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN
4) 04/07/1813 TEMPLE JAMES
GEORGE TEMPLE/MARY TEMPLE
FR2831
Male
Leith North EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN
5) 17/11/1804 TEMPLE JOHN
GEORGE TEMPLE/MARY TEMPLE
FR2727
Male
Leith North EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN
6) 03/05/1790 TEMPLE MARY
GEORGE TEMPLE/MARY WATSON
FR2747
Female
Leith North EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN
7) 05/11/1815 TEMPLE MARY ESTHER
GEORGE TEMPLE/MARY TEMPLE
FR2863
Female
Leith North EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN
 16/04/1807 TEMPLE MARY WATSON
GEORGE TEMPLE/MARY TEMPLE
FR2753
Female
Leith North EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN
9) 17/05/1819 TEMPLE ROBERT
GEORGE TEMPLE/MARY TEMPLE
FR2911
Male
Leith North EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN
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jack, mitchell,lowrie murray, donaldson, forgie, anderson, corbett, spence thomson kerr, fife, midlothian, lanarkshire, moray, wick.
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jac2
RootsChat Member
Posts: 194
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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hi dave
you should get out more. the exercise would do you good.
i've got an excuse i'm choked up with the flu.
jacci
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jack, mitchell,lowrie murray, donaldson, forgie, anderson, corbett, spence thomson kerr, fife, midlothian, lanarkshire, moray, wick.
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mahatmacoat
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 31
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Davey/Jacci,
I can't believe the trouble you have both gone to on my behalf,
I'm so very very grateful to you both, really i am!.
Both of you have given me so much food for thought here, and it's always better to have 3 people scratching their heads than one!.
Davey, you asked me if i had young Alexander's death record, yes i do,
it says Father George Sinclair (Grocer) interesting because George Sinclair
(married to mary Heron) was a grocer!!, i wonder???, but then again, if mary temple died and George re married would he call his first born Alexander again? ?, seems unlikely but i can't afford to rule it out.
Also, there is a marriage for George Sinclair and May Heron, and it's in Leslie!!
where my George married Mary Temple, this is getting even more likely that
this could be my George, i wonder if i can find a death for May Heron's husband
George??, i think i'll look into that, but then again i don't suppose that will tell me a great deal either.
Jacci, you gave me a list of Temple's born in North Leith and i can confirm that
Mary Watson Temple is the Husband of my George Sinclair, it states this on their marriage in Edinburgh.
Isn't it a pain in the backside when you can't fathom something out!!
i must confess right here and now, that i spend every wakeing minute thinking about this, i often wonder if i'll ever know?.
Jacci, thanks for the advise regarding Kirkcaldy library, it will definately be my first port of call next week.
Thankyou both very much for all your help with this, i'm quite overwhelmed at
the responce youv'e both given me, no really i am!, needless to say, if either
of you have anymore thoughts on this, i'd be very interested to know,
if i find anything out, i'll be sure to let you both know.
A HUGE THANKYOU TO BOTH OF YOU!!!.
kindest regards Rab Sinclair.
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mahatmacoat
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 31
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Davey/Jacci, one last thing i mean't to say, young Alexander
(George and mary's son) was living in Dysart on the 1851 census with his wife and children and indeed his brother Moncrieff, the interesting thing is May Heron being there with her half brother in 1861, in Dysart!!.
See Davey, your ideas are already rubbing off on me!.
Rab.
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daval57
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3112
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Davey, you asked me if i had young Alexander's death record, yes i do, it says Father George Sinclair (Grocer) interesting because George Sinclair (married to mary Heron) was a grocer!!, i wonder???, but then again, if mary temple died and George re married would he call his first born Alexander again? ?, seems unlikely but i can't afford to rule it out.
Rab,
That is why I asked if you had young Alexanders death. If he'd died before 1834 it would be more likely that Alexander's name was re-used. It was not uncommon to re-use the name of a child that had died. It is more unlikely since the younger Alexander was still alive.
I'm away to have another look at census records. 1841 census was never very accurate with ages. Maybe there was only 1 Alexander.
Dave
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------------------- FORREST (Glasgow, Stirlingshire, Dunbartonshire) BORTHWICK (Midlothian) ROONEY (Glasgow and Co Down, Co Antrim) ANDERSON (Moray, Caithness, Glasgow) FORTUNE (East Lothian) BARKER (Midlothian / East Lothian) SIVES / SIBBES and variations (East Lothian) ROCHEAD /ROCHEID and variations (Dunbartonshire) OR VISIT MY SITE FOR MORE NAMES http://daval57.tribalpages.com/ |
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daval57
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3112
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When was the marriage George to May Heron. I must have overlooked it.
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------------------- FORREST (Glasgow, Stirlingshire, Dunbartonshire) BORTHWICK (Midlothian) ROONEY (Glasgow and Co Down, Co Antrim) ANDERSON (Moray, Caithness, Glasgow) FORTUNE (East Lothian) BARKER (Midlothian / East Lothian) SIVES / SIBBES and variations (East Lothian) ROCHEAD /ROCHEID and variations (Dunbartonshire) OR VISIT MY SITE FOR MORE NAMES http://daval57.tribalpages.com/ |
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mahatmacoat
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 31
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Davey,
George Sinclair and mary Heron married in 1833 Leslie Fife, there is a birth for an Alexander Sinclair b 1833
in Leslie but this is someone else, the father is a James Sinclair so we can rule that one out.
Young Alexander (George and Mary Temple's son )died in Dysart
in 1885 he lists his father as George and mother mary temple.
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daval57
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3112
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I've got the downloaded baptism records for Alexander b1826 and Charles b1828.
Also baptism records for George and May Heron's 4 kids (all one doc).
If you PM me with email address, I'll pass them on.
Dave (No y)
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------------------- FORREST (Glasgow, Stirlingshire, Dunbartonshire) BORTHWICK (Midlothian) ROONEY (Glasgow and Co Down, Co Antrim) ANDERSON (Moray, Caithness, Glasgow) FORTUNE (East Lothian) BARKER (Midlothian / East Lothian) SIVES / SIBBES and variations (East Lothian) ROCHEAD /ROCHEID and variations (Dunbartonshire) OR VISIT MY SITE FOR MORE NAMES http://daval57.tribalpages.com/ |
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