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Topic: the gypsy family- the myth of taking children - Whitehouse/Bentley; Taylor/Smith (Read 1583 times)
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Steve G
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 466
My Maternal Great Gran ~ Polly Burge
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Returning the theme of 'odd' children; This has really struck a chord with me, today.
For one thing, my Gt. Aunt (Gypsy) had a child by extra marital affair whilst her husband was away in the Great War. The Father was a Gypsy. It seems she disappeared for the period of the obvious (this being the way it was done back then. No one spoke of such things. It was just 'not noticed') and returned childless. Then, after a period of time? She popped up with a little girl! 
I've no idea what excuse was 'formally' given for fetching an infant home, out of seemingly no where. What interests me though it that this girl (Nellie) was given a well known Gypsy surname. But one with no known connection to our line and certainly not that of the childs true Father.
I can't disclose names here, I'm afraid. Only, direct descendants are still very much alive. I'd love to know what Nellie's own daughter now knows of her own ascendancy.
And now the thing that actually sparked me off about this whole subject: I've just been actively working a branch of my family which has left me completely confused. These people are and always have been completely 'normal', settled people. They are Butchers, almost by family inheritance and have absolutely no Gypsy connections. Except one .....
I've come to recognise the strangest phenomena; The vast majority ~ virtually all ~ of the men I've studied 'just happen to' marry girls with well known Gypsy surnames! At first I never noticed. Then I did notice, but dismissed it. But, finally, it became such a pattern it started doing my head in!
Then I was given a photo of one of the latest. Ann Newbury. It's a family group shot and so I have others of the moment to compare. And Ann is obviously either 100% Romani Gypsy, or she's off another planet entirely. Her skin's almost as black as her hair and her facial structure is in a class of its own.
What to make of all that? God knows. But, here's the point that brought me here: In buying up Certification on this lot, I've hit a complete pile up. Back in 1800 and something, there's a married couple sat there surrounded by children they list on the Census as 'Sons' and 'Daughters'. Yet virtually all of them, on their own BC's, demonstrate disconnected parantage! It's like these two have gathered in kids from friends, family, neighbours and called them their own.
I'm actively trying to unravel more of this even today. But, does this lend us a clue? Could the 'Informal Adoption' mentioned above, have been more common place than we now realise? In both Travelling and Settled communities, that is. Or might there be something more to all these Gypsy named women? Might a 'tendency' have come across through a possible link there?
More questions than answers, as usual, that's for sure! 
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GAITES (Alverstoke / Bath Pre 1850)
CURTIS (Portsmouth & Pre 1800 London).
BURGE (Dorset, Somerset and Hampshire)
HUNTLEY (Dorset, Hampshire, Sussex, 'Surroundings')
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Redroger
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2309
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Steve, Your recent posting raises some very deep and significant questions, which I shall have to think about before I make a detailed reply. For now; my grandfather seems to have had no surviving children (if any at all) with his first wife, only a string of nurse children, and at least one informal adoption of his illegitimate nephew. It seems that she had the fertility problem as which his second wife he had two children in four years, notwithstanding an age gap of over 30 years, and he being over 70 when my father was born On my mother's side, maiden name Ayres, in at least three of the last 4 generations there has always been at least one child very dark skinned, and with very dark hair and dark brown eyes, my mother was partially like this as she had dark hair blue eyes, but with a brown segment in her right pupil. One of her sisters was very dark, the other very fair. I believe too that Ayres is a gypsy surname, though the family was to my knowledge always settled.
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Ayres Brignell Cornwell Harvey Shipp Stimpson Stubbings (all Cambs) Baumber Baxter Burton Ethards Stanton (all Lincs) Luffman (all counties)
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chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
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Dear Steve,
your post relates exactly to the kind of situation that I have been finding in my family since I fist "twigged" the travelling connection.It's why I posted the first post in the series. Nice as all the talk of gypsy caravans, etc, is, it really was straying from what I was searching for.
I had hunted high and low for my 3x gt grandmother's beginning, and I find her in the type of family that you mention. With children of unknown or dubious parentage, appearing in the same caravan, staying with relatives, and family surnames becoming mixed together, and marriages with all the daughters of one family seeming to marry the sons of another cousin family.
I have been thinking through this a lot.
What I have witnessed in certificates and other records is:
(a) the children are often illegitimate, as we understand them. But there may be family connections between the respective fathers. My 3x gran's alleged father was of the same surname as the man her mother eventually married.
In one census mother and children were living with a separate family member, with that same surname. I suspect brothers, and uncles had her living with them as she "passed through" the family ( and could a traveller have had two women in his caravan at the same time?) - hence the adopted children.
(b) later a son of my 3x gran's sister married one of my 3x gran's daughters, and three other daughters married three brothers, who were also his first cousins. First cousin marriages appear to be the norm.
(c) because of illegitimacy the girls, when they married, invented "false fathers" or lied about the surnames of their fathers, in order to cover up the fact, and also that - in one case- her husband's mother was going to marry her dad, or even lied about their own surnames to disguise their "gypsy" origins.
(d) It may even be that the usual practice of the woman adopting the partner's surname was not the same as it usually works. But it is certainly possible that the woman, and the men, might not have been really sure of their surnames.
Terry
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Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
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Brie
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 383
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi,
Like everyone else I believe the stories about gypsies taking children to be false.
However a few weeks ago I was reading the memoirs of Annie Beatrice Champion who later became a nanny (for amongst other families, the Bagots at Levens) and she describes her sister Izzy as being stolen by gypsies. She was recovered six weeks later. This would be in the 1860s.
Of course if a child was taken it's possible that gypsies were immediately blamed thus perpetuating the myth.
One other thing, does anyone know why gypsies were supposed to take children? Surely it would be another mouth to feed, another child to clothe.
Brie
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Shropshire Lass
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1190
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I would like to add a little about the custom of burning homes & possessions. My great grandmother's caravan & belongings were burnt after her death in 1988 even though it was sited in my grandparents back garden! My gran did this because she remembered it being done all through her life and was a familiar custom to her although my Mum was upset by it as she was of a different generation. So I can confirm that it is no myth.
My mother spent her early years in a gypsy living van. My grandparents were Irish, living in the north of England. When they married, they were lucky to get somewhere to rent - most places had signs up "No Irish, No children, No pets". When the landlady realised my grandmother was pregnant, she threw them out - being Irish was bad enough, a baby was too much.
My grand-dad met a young gypsy man in the pub who was very upset. He had been brought up in the van by his grandmother who had just died. He should have burnt the van but couldn't bring himself to do it. My grand-dad offered to buy it and the offer was accepted. My Mum and her two brothers were born in the van. My grandmother insisted they find somewhere else to live after grand-dad set the van on fire - accidentally - for the third time. Maybe the young man's grandmother was trying to put things right from beyond the grave!
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukDALBY - Suffolk and, after 1860, Birmingham. EBENEZER - Cardiganshire & Glamorgan. GARVEY and GRAHAM - Mayo. HUBBARD - Birmingham. MAUND and LEWIS - Shropshire and Birmingham. MORGAN(S) - Cardiganshire. SLADE - Somerset and Worcester. |
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SKy1
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 11
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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i remember when we were travlin in the 60s a wagon being burnt, and t was off the road
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vince smith
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 14
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I think two things give rise to the " Theft of children myth".
Firstly, Romnichal children are often born fair haired and turn dark as they get older. when gypsy children are seen with their swarthy parents, questions are asked. This was highlighted in the tragic Ben Needham case. False hopes were raised each time a blond infant was spotted among Greek Gypsies.
I'm pretty certain that thefts do take place in impoverished parts of Eastern Europe though.
Secondly it has always been the gypsy way to take in orphans. The head of one of Britains biggest construction companies was raised in this way. The adopted child is given full Romany status. This is one of the nicer points of our often misunderstood culture.
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Steve G
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 466
My Maternal Great Gran ~ Polly Burge
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Just to pretty much echo Vince's words, really; Now that I'm a bit more up together than I was when I tried to phrase this in the early hours!
I've read a lot of the historical stuff. Good. Bad. The just plain factual. I've actually never yet came across a recorded instance of Gypsys 'stealing' a child. Simple as that. They were accused of stealing just about anything else ye care to imagine. Often, seemingly, found guilty by default of just being Gypsys. Then hung, transported of imprisoned. But, never, in my experience, for stealing a child.
As has been asked above; Why on earth would they? What is anyone going to do with a child? Feed the damn thing like some kind of pet? It just wouldn't make sense.
However, I recently did read an account of a child being Adopted ~ and raised and cared for, much as Vince states. This was a kiddie who had found himself in a Work House, where he was so brutally treated that he ran away and found, or was found by a family of Gypsys.
The Mother took him in, scrubbed him clean and fed him well. When 'The Authorities' passed by, the lad was kept out of sight and thus protected till the heat died down. And he too grew up to think of himself ~ and be accepted ~ as a perfectly normal Romany.
Incidentally; When I popped out, with my - then - curly blonde hair, it's a wonder my black haired Dad never strangled some guy! 
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GAITES (Alverstoke / Bath Pre 1850)
CURTIS (Portsmouth & Pre 1800 London).
BURGE (Dorset, Somerset and Hampshire)
HUNTLEY (Dorset, Hampshire, Sussex, 'Surroundings')
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Steve G
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 466
My Maternal Great Gran ~ Polly Burge
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Interestingly, mate; Cornwell isn't listed ~ though, as I'm so often at pains to point out; That of itself disproves nothing. However, Cordwell is. Sussex and Wiltshire. I don't suppose a randomly picked up phone directory would be exactly lifting with either name?
Brignell, I can't really come too close, in this listing. Bridge, Bridges and Bridgen are as near as it gets. Bridgen is 1891, Essex and Norfolk though ..... 'Interestingly' close on two counts there then. Similarity of name and geographical closeness.
Actually, Bob lists two more books. Each, seemingly, pretty much straight directories of Gypsy names. I wonder ....?
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GAITES (Alverstoke / Bath Pre 1850)
CURTIS (Portsmouth & Pre 1800 London).
BURGE (Dorset, Somerset and Hampshire)
HUNTLEY (Dorset, Hampshire, Sussex, 'Surroundings')
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Sorry, Roger. I hadn't realised ye were waiting on me there 
