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Author Topic: Birth lookup request  (Read 577 times)
youngman!
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Birth lookup request
« on: Tuesday 16 December 08 18:36 UTC (UK) »
I have been trying to locate the birth record of a Henry Gatford b.1812 in Cuckfield. I have managed to find entries in each of the Census 1841,51,61,71,81 and his death 1890 Cuckfield. He married an Elizabeth Budgen (b. 1821 Ardingly) in 1838. On their marriage certificate Henry's father is shown as a Walter Gatford.

I have searched the IGI and find others in our distant family circle having recorded the two names but there appears to be no other records for Henry's birth and no further trace of his father Walter.

Whilst Gatford has always been a good name to work with (as there are not too many of them when searching the web and are nearly always from Sussex) I am reaching the point where I don't know which way to go from here.... do I need to try the records office at Chichester or is it Lewes? Or are there church records that you may have copies of? I would be really grateful for any help, additional information or advice anyone can offer.

Searching through your requests you always appear to have the answer! Thank you.
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sillgen
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Re: Birth lookup request
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 16 December 08 19:02 UTC (UK) »
Hi
For some reason the male baptisms at Cuckfield do not appear on the IGI.  The females are there but no males.  Give me a bit of time and I will see what I can come up with.  The baptisms from 1813 -35 are available on fiche from WSRO but if he is 1812 then I may not be able to find it.
Andrea
Should have said - Welcome to rootschat!
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Sill/Sills anywhere. 
Rowan, Tow, Forman, Brown, Allen and King in Yorkshire, Northumberland and Durham. 
Census information is Crown Copyright  http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
youngman!
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Re: Birth lookup request
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 16 December 08 19:23 UTC (UK) »
Thanks Andrea.

All the censuses show Henry b.1812 but the 1841 shows him b.1810 which I understand is peculiar to the year rounded up or down according to the age given.

I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed you may be able to find him. Once again thanks for your help.
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sillgen
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Re: Birth lookup request
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 16 December 08 19:47 UTC (UK) »
No Henry yet!  There are two Gatford couples having kids at that time.  Walter and Elizabeth and John and Ann.   The records are very hard to decipher so if you can get to Chichester to look at the opriginal it would be worth it.   I don't guarantee names or dates!
Baptisms
1789 15 Nov James son of John and Ann
1792 Ann dau John and Ann
Multiple baptism on June 25 1797 for children of Walter and Bett
John age 8
Sarah age 5
James age 3
Mary - presumably an infant.

1798 Sarah dau John and Ann
1799 13 Oct Friend dau Walter and Bett
1802 20 Jun Mary dau Walter and Elizabeth
1803 1 May Elizabeth and Susanna twin dau John and Ann
1805 13 Jan Sarah/Susan? dau Walter and Elizabeth
1805 2 Jun Susanna dau Walter and Elizabeth  (these two seem a bit close.)

Burials
1797 John infant
1804 Sarah infant dau John age 1
1810 Mary widow 71

Will keep at it but may have to stop to feed the husband!
Andrea
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Sill/Sills anywhere. 
Rowan, Tow, Forman, Brown, Allen and King in Yorkshire, Northumberland and Durham. 
Census information is Crown Copyright  http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
sillgen
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Re: Birth lookup request
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 16 December 08 19:56 UTC (UK) »
Baptism 1811 2 Jun Henry Gatford son of Walter and Elizabeth
1808 5 Jun Martha dau W and E
Source of all these was the parish register transcript from IHGS - on fiche.  Will look for Walter's death later.
Andrea
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Sill/Sills anywhere. 
Rowan, Tow, Forman, Brown, Allen and King in Yorkshire, Northumberland and Durham. 
Census information is Crown Copyright  http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
youngman!
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Re: Birth lookup request
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 16 December 08 21:19 UTC (UK) »
Hi Andrea

Thank you so much for the info so far. I have a few queries that I hope you may be able to clear up but I don't want to impose upon you so I really am grateful for this and accept your husband will kill me if you do not feed him !!! :-)

Firstly it's the change of names Walter and Bett (entries between 1797 - 1799) and Walter and Elizabeth (entries between 1802 - 1811) ...I take it that the vicar / rector may have felt strongly about Christian names and converted Bett to Elizabeth .... say if there was a change of clergyman between 1799 and 1802 - is there anyway of telling from your IHGS parish register if there was such a change or what church these took place in so that I could research it?

Secondly you mention the 1805 entries on Sarah / Susan and Susanna as being date close ... I take it these are baptisms so could be 'close' or are we talking births on your list between 1798 and 1805?

Lastly, the burial of Sarah in 1804 shows her the daughter of John aged 1 .... John's Sarah bap. 1798 would be 6 .... any thoughts on that one?  Walter would have a Sarah of that age..... strange.

I really do appreciate the stirling work you have done for me deciphering these records .... absolutely astounding leads for me to follow up.

I've seen writers in these topics say they have had speedy replies but you really have come up with the answers in amazing time.
Thank you so much.
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sillgen
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Re: Birth lookup request
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 16 December 08 21:48 UTC (UK) »
I live in Cuckfield and am very involved in the museum here so local queries always interest me.  These entries are all from the church of Holy Trinity in Cuckfield.    There is no indication of the vicar's names on the transcript but I could always wander along and have a look at the list in the church.  We are talking baptisms.   I assume the earlier child called Sarah might have died?  They did tend to use the same names.   I have a book of the early registers from 1598 - 1699 and there are some Gatford entries in that so if you get back that far....
Looking at the IGI there are various member submitted records for the Gatford family.    There was a burial for a Walter Gatford in 1840 in Cuckfield so I have checked it.  The entry reads
Walter Gatford and the address is Hurstpierpoint July 12th age 73
Hurstpierpoint is not far away but they do have their own church so one must assume he came "home" to be buried.
The marriage of Walter to Elizabeth Picknall in 1788, which is also on the IGI, is confirmed by the Sussex Marriage Index.  That also has an earlier marriage 31 Oct 1760 for a Walter Gatford to Mary Bently botp with a note to say he signs Gattford.  If they were literate they may well have left wills.  Have you looked on the PRO documentsonline site?   Or the A2A one to see if they show up in  either Lewes or Chichester catalogues?
As yet I cannot see a baptism for Walter.   If he was around 73 at death it should be within a few years of 1767 but it is not leaping out at me.
The name "Friend" was interesting.  Not a C of E name and the fact they they had a multiple baptism - possibly when the vicar caught up with them?  Maybe not regular church goers?
Andrea
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Sill/Sills anywhere. 
Rowan, Tow, Forman, Brown, Allen and King in Yorkshire, Northumberland and Durham. 
Census information is Crown Copyright  http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
youngman!
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Re: Birth lookup request
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 17 December 08 18:56 UTC (UK) »
Thanks Andrea

I managed to find a website that had listed the Holy Trinity incumbants and sure enough there was a new vicar in 1801 ... it presents a rather interesting proposition that Walter and Bett are the same couple as Walter and Elizabeth. I take your point about reuse of children's names.

Looking at Henry's children ... their names were John, James, Thomas and Mary-Ann. So looking at the names of children associated to Walter there is some links but I guess they were popular names of the day anyway.

What is of interest to me are John and Ann's children's names compared to Walter's children. Is there anyway to check back still further if Walter and John were brothers with so little information?  I guess a trip to Chichester may be the only way forward on that one?

I'll be gratefully following up your other suggestions re wills, PRO documents online and A2A .... you really have given me a renewed belief I may still find a way to trace Walter.

Thanks again.
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sillgen
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Re: Birth lookup request
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 20 December 08 10:27 UTC (UK) »
Baptism at Holy Trinity Cuckfield
Walter son of Walter and Mary Gatford 18 Aug 1768.  S Warneford Curate
Presumably that is Mary, widow, who is buried in 1810 age 71 and ties in nicely with the marriage to Mary Bently.
I am convinced that Bett and Elizabeth are the same person.   There are several Picknell/Picknall entries but I have not found her yet.
Andrea
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sillgen
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Re: Birth lookup request
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 20 December 08 11:14 UTC (UK) »
Baptism
Bet daughter of Samuel and Mary Picknell 25th Nov 1774

There are a lot of entries for children of this couple and the earlier ones say "of the parish of Ardingly. Baptised here for convenience" or something about "baptised here with consent of vicar".  However later ones are standard so they obviously had established their living in the parish of Cuckfield by then.
It is interesting that this does all tie up with the member submitted entries on the IGI.  Date a bit out but only by a day!
The SMI has a marriage at Ardingly 23 April 1765 for Samuel Picknell to Mary Huborn.   They are botp but that is the only Huborn entry in the Ardingly parish register, which I have in book form, between 1558 to 1812 so Mary was not born there and there is no baptism entry for Samuel either.  Their first son, Thomas, is baptised there Dec 21st 1765.   Born Nov 24th.
Andrea
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Sill/Sills anywhere. 
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Census information is Crown Copyright  http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
sillgen
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Re: Birth lookup request
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 20 December 08 11:49 UTC (UK) »
More Gatford burials at Cuckfield
1841 Elizabeth age 1
Oct 7th 1839 Elizabeth age 69 - presumably Walter's wife.
Oct 3 1830 John age 74 so born c 1756
Wonder if he is the one on the IGI for 1858 in Slaugham who then seems to marry Ann Wells?   Slaugham is very close to Cuckfield.
Andrea
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Sill/Sills anywhere. 
Rowan, Tow, Forman, Brown, Allen and King in Yorkshire, Northumberland and Durham. 
Census information is Crown Copyright  http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
youngman!
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Re: Birth lookup request
« Reply #11 on: Sunday 21 December 08 19:49 UTC (UK) »
Thank you Andrea for the time you have spent researching my queries.
It took a bit of time for me to map this info out and work through the IGI entries - thank you so much.
It's more than answered my original query I'm very grateful for your help.
Merry Christmas to you and your family.
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sillgen
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Re: Birth lookup request
« Reply #12 on: Monday 22 December 08 08:54 UTC (UK) »
A pleasure.  Let me know if you have any more Cuckfield queries.
Andrea
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Sill/Sills anywhere. 
Rowan, Tow, Forman, Brown, Allen and King in Yorkshire, Northumberland and Durham. 
Census information is Crown Copyright  http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
aelf
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Re: Birth lookup request
« Reply #13 on: Sunday 01 November 09 20:03 UTC (UK) »
Quote from: sillgen on Saturday 20 December 08 11:49 UTC (UK)
Oct 3 1830 John age 74 so born c 1756
Wonder if he is the one on the IGI for 1858 in Slaugham who then seems to marry Ann Wells?   Slaugham is very close to Cuckfield.
Andrea

Slaugham has a burial for "Mr John Gatford" age 55 on 12 Jan 1814, which fits better with the one born in Slaugham in 1758. Presumably the John buried in Cuckfield was the husband of Ann Lee, married 15 Dec 1788 in Cuckfield, described as a butcher at his first child's baptism.

He was my wife's 3xgreat grandfather, but I still can't get back any further.

John Gatford of Slaugham married an Ann Wells, and so did his son John - this seems a bit much even by the standards of my (Norfolk) ancestors!
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sillgen
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Re: Birth lookup request
« Reply #14 on: Sunday 01 November 09 20:59 UTC (UK) »
I now have access to more Cuckfield registers and having looked at the John Gatford/Ann Lee marriage it has the witnesses as Jacob?? Lee his mark, William Burt and John Noi??
The next entry is the banns for Walter Gatford and Bett Picknall.
Andrea
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