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Author
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Topic: Stuck on my Irish ancestors. Help needed Please (Read 1896 times)
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JAP
RootsChat Leaver
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5079
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PART 2
1889
Ellen BURNS marries, Jun quarter 1889, Liverpool, Vol 8b, Page 164.
James HOYLE is on the same page.
1891 census
RG12/2973/60/48
53 Aber St, Bootle
HOYLE household
James, Head, 22, Sailor(?), born Lancashire Liverpool
Ellen, Wife, 20, born Lancashire Liverpool
John, Son, 1, born Lancashire Liverpool
Patrick BURNS, Lodger, Widower, 54, Dock Labourer, born Lancashire Bootle
Mary MCDONALD, Visitor, Married, 22, born Ireland
Patrick MCDONALD, Son deleted and replaced by Visitor, 6 months, born Lancashire Bootle
Note: Patrick BURNS's birthplace is surely just an error. One has to suspect that Mary is Ellen's sister and that the Ireland birthplace for her is also an error. The only 1890 Patrick M*CDONALD birth is Patrick Ranald in Toxteth Park which seems unlikely. However there are several 1890 births for a Patrick BURNS and for a Patrick BYRNE including a Patrick BURNS in West Derby (which includes Bootle) in Dec quarter 1890, Vol 8b, P253. A Patrick BURNS, age 0, died in West Derby, June quarter 1891.
1901 census
RG13/3461/117/49
130 Irlam Rd, Bootle
HOYLE household
James, Head, 30, Dock Labourer, Worker, born Liverpool Lancashire
Ellen, Wife, 32, Tobacconist Shop Keeper own account at home, born Liverpool Lancashire
John, Son, 11, born Bootle Lancashire
James, Son, 9, born Bootle Lancashire
Hewey, Son, 7, born Bootle Lancashire
Ellen, Daughter, 5, born Bootle Lancashire
William, Son, 11 months, born Bootle Lancashire
Patrick BYRNE, Father-in-law, 64, Dock Labourer, Worker, born Ireland
Annie DAVIES, Servant, Unmarried, 21, General Domestic Servant, Worker, born Wales
Note: Patrick's surname has been transcribed as BYRON though it's obviously BYRNE. Annie's name has been transcribed as DAVELLA though it's obviously DAVIES.
JAP
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Rabbit B
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4067
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Hello again rabbit b,
I have just read through your scavenger hunt.
Have you had the 1872 birth of Ellen BYRNE checked out?
Ellen BYRNE, birth, Liverpool, March quarter 1872, Volume 8b, Page 172
You seem to have had many earlier births checked but not this one.
It doesn't match with ages given in some censuses - but it does seem that Patrick & Margaret's arithmetic was a bit astray when it came to working out the ages of their children!
However the March quarter 1872 birth fits nicely with a couple of other things:
a) Ellen's non-appearance on the 1871 census (particularly important)
b) Ellen's age of 18 recorded at her marriage in 1889
c) Ellen's age of 20 recorded in the 1901 census
If you haven't already done so, it would seem to be a good idea to have the 1872 birth looked at.
Good luck,
JAP
hi jap
i have just typed a long answer to you and lost the lot, so sorry, and thanks so much for all this.
i am babysitting this morning but will look more closely at all this info this evening. grateful thanks for all your time and trouble
see you later
rabbit b 
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Conning/London
Wareham/Winchester
Hart/Cambridgeshire
Burns/Byrne/Liverpool and Ireland
Nibbs/London
Brealey/Staffordshire
Melbourn/Melbourne/Cambridgeshire
Hoyle/Liverpool
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Rabbit B
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4067
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hi JAP,
sorry i had to rush off like that this morning.
i am fascinated by the way you have pulled this all together, apart from 1871 and Ellen's birth, i had almost got there.
i will certainly check out that birth, it doesn't fit with the 1911 census, but what does. Ellen was 40 then and James 42 which gives you different dates again. they had been married 22 years which fits with 1889 OK. but again gives me a different birth date for Ellen
here is another interesting piece of useless info, my dads second name must have been a baptismal name, it is not on his birth certificate, and although his mother maiden name is spelt Burns, it looks as if the u is 1/2 a y and the s could be an e. but it is clear in the register. having said that, they have my maiden name wrong in the records and ancestry.co.uk, and despite my protests will not change it, my certificates are correct though, so errors do happen like this,
dad's sister's birth certificate is Byrne, no mistake there. there were twelve children. it will break the bank to get all of them and check it.
i have always been told it was Byrne and did not know that was how it was spelt until i watched Ballykissangel with the teletext up. i thought it was burns, the way is was pronounced.
now could Ellen have had another name by which she was called. my mother never used her real name only ever her nickname on everthing. could that be a reason i haven't found her yet.
so how can one prove which is right. any suggestions would be gratefully received. it is so nice of you to have gone to all this trouble for me.
i really do appreciate it you know.
thank you so much
rabbit b
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Conning/London
Wareham/Winchester
Hart/Cambridgeshire
Burns/Byrne/Liverpool and Ireland
Nibbs/London
Brealey/Staffordshire
Melbourn/Melbourne/Cambridgeshire
Hoyle/Liverpool
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JAP
RootsChat Leaver
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5079
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Hi again rabbit b,
I'm going to be very disappointed (not as much as you, no doubt) if Ellen registered in Mar qtr 1872 isn't the right one!
I have these visions of Patrick filling in the 1881 census schedule and saying to himself something like the following:
Now, I know how old I am. Yes, 43. And Margaret's always been a year older than me so she must be 44. Yes. Now, how old is Mary? Ah, she's a fine big girl now. She must be 16 if she's a day. Yes, I'll put down 16. Now, what about Ellen? That's a hard one. Well, Mary must have been about 3 or 4 when we had little baby Ellen so that would make Ellen about 12. Yes, I'll put down 12.
Just a matter of one mistake leading to another ...
Fingers crossed that the Mar qtr 1872 Ellen has the right parents!
All the best,
JAP
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JAP
RootsChat Leaver
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5079
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Hi yet again Rabbit B,
... got a nasty feeling that we have done this one. i will ask my pal tomorrow ...
In your Scavenger Hunt, jcred first raised the matter of the 1872 birth record for an Ellen BYRNE in reply #89. Lesanne referred back to this in replies #103 and #105, and jcred mentioned it again in reply #119. In reply #121, you said that you would check it out. But in reply #174 (13 Oct 2008) you provided a list of all the births that had been checked out - and the 1872 birth is not in that list ... So unless you have checked it out since then ...
IF the 1872 birth registration is not the correct Ellen, then we are faced with the very difficult problem of where was Ellen at the time of the 1871 census (at which time we find Patrick, wife Margaret and 2yo daughter Mary - but no Ellen).
JAP
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shanew147
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2628
- - Dublin, Ireland - -
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just to let you know that the National Library of Ireland website is back in action this morning - the parish register list is at : http://www.nli.ie/en/parish-register.aspx
Shane
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Wilson : Cambridgeshire [Chatteris], Yorkshire [Leeds], Dublin & Australia [Sydney/NSW] | Fitzsimon : Bray, Co. Wicklow & South Co. Dublin
Hayes, Shepherd, Bickerdike, Render, Harper : Yorkshire | Doyle, Dillon, Cantwell, Roach, Clarke : Co. Wicklow
Cathcart, Wilson : Kings Co./Offaly, Dublin City & N. Ireland | Hodges : Bristol, Glos./Bray Co. Wicklow/Dublin City | Nevin : Cork
Sheridan : Dublin City | Kavanagh, Rooney, Clarke, Hughes, May, Monks : North Co. Dublin [Rush/Thomastown]
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Rabbit B
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4067
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Hi yet again Rabbit B,
In your Scavenger Hunt, jcred first raised the matter of the 1872 birth record for an Ellen BYRNE in reply #89. Lesanne referred back to this in replies #103 and #105, and jcred mentioned it again in reply #119. In reply #121, you said that you would check it out. But in reply #174 (13 Oct 2008) you provided a list of all the births that had been checked out - and the 1872 birth is not in that list ... So unless you have checked it out since then ...
IF the 1872 birth registration is not the correct Ellen, then we are faced with the very difficult problem of where was Ellen at the time of the 1871 census (at which time we find Patrick, wife Margaret and 2yo daughter Mary - but no Ellen).
JAP
hi JAP
i have sent a link to my friend in liverpool, but the lady who has been checking the records has not yet replied.
this one handed typing is exhausting, i did try and go though my records last night without finding the one i was looking for.
i will write to another lady who has also been checking. i don't think that Ellen wants us to find her.
but i am not giving up. i am so glad that you have got the hunt the 'Ellen bug' too, the more the merrier, she must be somewhere, although one friend suggested that, if the family was hard up, registering babies cost money, for the paperwork. so they might not have bothered to do it.
i will let you know as soon as i have any more info. please don't give up. everything takes so long for me at the moment with only one hand. i am most grateful for all your time and trouble.
rabbit b 
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Conning/London
Wareham/Winchester
Hart/Cambridgeshire
Burns/Byrne/Liverpool and Ireland
Nibbs/London
Brealey/Staffordshire
Melbourn/Melbourne/Cambridgeshire
Hoyle/Liverpool
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JAP
RootsChat Leaver
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5079
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Hi toni*,
Thanks but embarrassed
JAP
PS: Moi aussi re the 1872 birth!!
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PaulaToo
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4667
Me 'n Gerry
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I've learned to treat the census with great caution....
Look at the strife we had with Eliza Ann Smith/Moore/Webb/Challis/Wicks/Whatever... She has a different name on nearly every census, only Smith, Moore and Wicks are legit.
Also her mother was Mary Ann Byles/Baylis/Boyles, depending on local spelling.
I also have a family who all claim to be born in Westminster in 1881, and the same family, same names, including a daughter who was living with her boyfriend(shh don't let the neighbours know) in 1891 claiming they were all born in Islington....it's got to be them, names and ages are a perfect match.
So I would go along with the different spelling of the name, even in the same town different people had their own ways and it all depended on who was writing it down.
As to suddenly forgetting they were Irish...could there have been a little anti Irish sentiment at that time, making it unwise to own up where they really came from...might explain a lot.
I think you will have to get that Birth Cert, Rabbit, after all, if it's a dud, you can always start papering the barn, like I did with the Eliza Ann paper chase.
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Bartlett/Henley on Thames
Caponhurst/Buckinghamshire and?
Denchfield/North Marston/Bucks
Webb/Winchester
Mathias/Pembroke/Pembroke Dock
Smith/Portsmouth/Portsea
Purchas/Bucks and?
Olliffe/Bucks
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