|
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5
|
 |
|
Author
|
Topic: The Garniers of Winchester and environs (Read 2089 times)
|
chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
|
I have come up with a family link to the Garniers.
There are three that I know of who were relatively famous.
Thomas Garnier (1776-1873) dean of Winchester( 1840-72), botanist,
rector of Bishopstoke Hampshire (1807-1860)
His son Thomas (1809-1863) dean of Lincoln
William Garnier rector of Wickham, prebendary of Winchester Cathedral.
Thomas Sr or William had a daughter, who married, I believe, the linchpin to the line I'm looking at. His name was William Johnson, and he was rector of either Hinton or Alresford, something like that.
I'm trying to sort out these family connections.
Because I have a Thomas Johnson, in my tree, who was born in Alresford, (father 's name William) and who had a son named Thomas Garnier Johnson. It's possible that a Garnier daughter was his grandmother.
can anyone help?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
|
|
|
Little Nell
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 7265
|
When was William born? And when do you think this lady married William Johnson?
Nell
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
|
Sorry Nell,
I don't know any of these things.
I do not know any more about William Johnson , for certain, even whether my guess is right - that I have the right William.
Nor about his marriage.
Alresford, and Bishopstoke, are not on the IGI.
Nor does the surname Garnier aqppear in a marriage.
So I am speculating, but it would have to have been before 1800,
which is - more or less - the date of Thomas Johnson's birth.
The other option, as I said, is that it was Thomas's first wife was the Garnier, in which case it would have to be before 1835, the date of the birth of Thomas Garnier, to Thomas. But I do feel the first is the more likely.
Terry
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
|
|
|
Little Nell
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 7265
|
This appears to be the family :
George Garnier was married to a Margaret - I can't find a marriage in Hampshire.
Children:
George bap 23 May 1769 Wickham
Charles bap 18 Aug 1770 Wickham
William bap 16 Dec 1771 Wickham
Anne bap 6 Jun 1773 Wickham
John Miller bap 14 Nov 1774 Wickham
Thomas bap 27 Mar 1776 Wickham
Henry bap 25 Mar 1778 Wickham
Thomas Garnier born 1776, son of George Garnier, gentleman, of Wickham Hampshire. He attended Worcester College, Oxford and was a felow of All Souls College. He was rector of Bishopstoke 1807-68 and dean of Winchester from 1840 until his death on 29 June 1873. Thomas had a brother George born about 1769. His brother William was born 1772 and attended New College Oxford. He was prebendary of Winchester 1800, rector of Droxford from 1801-35 (d 18 March 1835.
Thomas Garnier, eldest son of Thomas Garnier, clergyman, of Bishopstoke Hampshire attended Worcester College, Oxford and was born about 1810. He was also a fellow of All Souls College, 1830-35. He was vicar of Lewknor, Oxfordshire 1835-40; rector of Longford in Derbyshire 1840-50; rector of Trinity Marylebone 1850-60. He was dean of Ripon and dean of Lincoln 1860-1863 (died 7 Dec 1863). He had a son Thomas Parry Garnier (his mother was Maria Parry - I cannot find a marriage in Hampshire for them).
When was William Johnson rector of Hinton or Alresford, please? Even a rough date would help  And where was your Thomas Garnier Johnson born? Have you thought that perhaps Thomas Garnier was the chap who baptised him? I don't see the baptism in Hampshire.
Nell
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
|
Thanks Nell,
I'll sum up all that I have.
In the 1851 census in Beverley Yorkshire, my Thomas Johnson, after the death of his 1st wife, and before he married my relation, Betsey Sharman, had a son Thomas G Sharman living with him. Later censuses expand on the initial. T.G.J was down as being born c1835 in Westminster Middlesex. His father as being born in Alresford Hants in c1801.
I found that, in the 1830 Pigot's for Hampshire in the village of Alresford page, on Ancestry, there is an entry for "Rev. William Johnson, Hinton." I don't know if Hinton is a local hamlet or a house name. This is in the gentry section, but it doesn't say whether he is rector of Alresford, or not. I do of course have absolutely no evidence that this is Thomas's father, other than the fact that he was living in Alresford in 1831, and Thomas said that he was born there, thirty years before.
Then I found a Canadian peerage page on the web giving Laura Sophia Johnson, marrying a Barrett-Lennard, with father Thomas Garnier Johnson, and this I know has to be her, as she is clearly in two of T.G.J's family's later censuses. That webpage ties the family obliquely to the British peerage, and mentions the Keppels, who were I think also related to the Garniers.
Then I found an IGI mention of the birth of a Laura Marguerette (or Margaret) Garnier in Beverley Yorkshire on 22 Oct 1810, child of William and Harriet, ch 19 Nov 1910 in St Luke's Chelsea London. This and Thomas's choice of Laura as the name for one of his daughters, and the Beverley connection added weight to a chain of merely coincidental evidence.
Could William and Harriet have been visiting a married sister in Beverley when the child was born?
Then I find a William Garnier marrying a Harriot or Henrietta Lady North
at Rooksbury on 9 June 1797. This is the William son of George you have in your list.
It could be a big cosmic joke on me for guessing, but coincidences like this are worth looking into.
Terry
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
|
|
|
Little Nell
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 7265
|
A Thomas Johnson was baptised in New Alresford 16 Nov 1798, parents William and Frances Johnson. They do not appear to have married in Hampshire. I have not been able to find any other more likely baptisms.
Hinton would probably be Hinton Ampner, a parish situated about five or six miles south of New Alresford. Hinton Admiral is way down near Christchurch.
George Garnier was buried in Wickham 10 Nov 1819 aged 80 (he left a will proved in PCC, available from the National Archives Documentsonline for £3.50). His wife Margaret was buried 30 Dec 1807 aged 65. A William Garnier was buried in Wickham aged 63 on 30 Apr 1835. This is the prebendary of Winchester and his will is also downloadable from the National Archives. He lived at Rookesbury in the parish of Wickham. There are also wills of a Selina Garnier of Rookesbury proved 1851, and Lady Harriet Garnier widow of Grafton Street, proved 1847. Lady Harriet was the Rev William's widow, she died in Tunbridge Wells 10 Oct 1847 and was the eldest daughter of Brownlow North, Bishop of Winchester. Her brother was the Earl of Guilford. I have also found her recorded as Henrietta. She married William Garnier on 9 Jun 1797 at St Luke's in Chelsea.
I think that you need to find Thomas Garnier Johnson's baptism and then his parents marriage before you can really speculate on a connection. Further information about the William Johnson in Hinton is also needed but I can't find him in 1841, nor can a find a death for him at the moment - or at least not in Hampshire.
Nell
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
|
Thank you for the facts that you have found Nell, especially the baptism of Thomas. That's very useful.
But I do disagree with you on one point .
My experience of a middle name that is clearly a surname,
let's call it a significant surname
is that it usually represents the surname of a close female ancestor, mother or grandmother.
It's come up several times in my family, and unless I got evidence to the contrary ( and so far I haven't) it has always meant a female surname being carried forward, through the generations,
and very seldom ( so far never) provably just the name, say, of a godparent.
So I shall continue to speculate, because whenever I have done so before, the speculation has been proved right.
I am not going to spend £3.50 on documents I can get by going down to the TNA and buying there on units on a card for significantly less, certainly not for what are possibly only indirect ancestors, or maybe not at all. So that can wait until I get the chance to pay Kew a visit.
It may be that the search will have to go onto the back burner until I find the missing link here.
Aas you say, I do need the marriage of Wiliam and Frances, and that preceding civil registration, won't be easy to locate.
Terry
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
|
|
|
Little Nell
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 7265
|
Oh I don't deny that the use of a middle name is significant and can often be a maiden name from further back. I have multiple examples from my own family tree.
But I also know that it can sometimes be the surname of a godfather - again I have examples. This is why I think it can only be treated as a possibility, rather than anything more certain just yet.
William & Frances Johnson had two other sons baptised in New Alresford: Edward and William Henry in 1799 and 1797 respectively.
I did wonder if Frances may have been born Frances Garnier, daughter of George. She married a John Delme, but John & Frances continue to have children until 1807, so that rules that possibility out.
But it would also appear that the Garnier family owned a house in Wickham - called Beverley. It may not be anything to do with the place in Yorkshire. But I can't find it on a map at present, but from the entries in the Hampshire Record Office catalogue, it may have been on the Rookesbury estate.
Nell
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
pete1789
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 89
Joseph and Rosamond's wedding, 1918
|
From my days as a librarian, I recalled a book on the Garnier family. The details are : The Chronicles of the Garniers of Hampshire during four centuries, 1530 - 1900, by A E Garnier. There should still be reference copies available in a few Hampshire libraries local history sections.
Hope it might help.
Best wishes
Pete
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Bishop : Dorset/Guernsey Blake : Devon/Guernsey Priaulx : Guernsey Spencer : Gloucestershire/Hereford Davis : Hereford Hammond : Middlesex Wellings : Middlesex So far... All census information:Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
|
|
chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
|
Thanks Pete
that would need to be by interlibrary loan,
as I don't live anywhere near Hampshire.
I'll look into it.
oh, and incidentally, Nell,
you missed one of Thomas's brothers out.
John Trompett, chr to Wm and Frances Johnson 4 Feb 1801.
Terry
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
|
|
|
Little Nell
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 7265
|
 Retires from the lists - you obviously have information than I initially realised.
Nell
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
|
Not exactly, Nell,
I found the Knightroots website after I posted the puzzle, and didn't realise until I'd read a couple of the replies that I had been looking for Alresford in their index, instead of Old Alresford and New Alresford.
But isn't the second name Trompett Huegenot in origin too? These Johnsons had Huegenot connections for sure.
Terry
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
|
|
|
chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
|
I found the house called Beverley House in Wickham.
So maybe the entry in the IGI for Laura Marguerette is, after all, a mistake of interpretation of a notation in the original register that the transcriber looked at.
But I continue to feel the strangeness of the assumption that all this is coincidence, even so.
We have someone in Beverley, Yorkshire, who gave the name Garnier to a child probably just before moving to Beverley from Hampshire, (c1840s)
and a family in Hampshire, called Garnier, who choose to give their house the name Beverley, of all things. ( that appears to be named this by the 1840s)
I wonder how far back the name "Beverley House" goes for that piece of property?
It certainly apears that the creator of the Peerage lists on that Canadian website, or from whatever it derives, thought there was a connection to English nobility, but that website is a bit of a muddle, and I might be mistaken.
I am not now so sure of the link between Rev William Johnson of Hinton Ampner, and the Thomas Johnson that I am researching, as the parsonage of Hinton Ampner seems to be in the hands of a Rev Thomas Johnson in 1851. This Thomas is more or less the same age as my Thomas, son of William from Alresford, and if this Thomas, rector of Hinton, is the son of the Rev William Johnson who was in the directory as living at Hinton, then this cannot be the William Johnson, who baptised my Thomas at Alresford at the turn of the century.
Terry
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
|
|
|
scriv2
RootsChat Member
Posts: 167
|
I have found this and wonder if it helps you firm up on who is 'your' Thomas Johnson ...apologies if someone has already come up with it.
In 1841 a 'Rev.Thos Johnson' born ca. 1796 out of the county of Hampshire is a clergyman in Hinton Ampner, Bramdean, Alresford.
There are quite a few Johnsons listed in the household, all born out of County, but as it is the 1841 census, no relationships are entered for Ellen aged 40, John aged 35, Penelope Eliza aged 35 and Matilda aged 35
Ref: District 5a, Bramdean/ Ropley/Alresford
UPDATE: In 1851 this Thomas Johnson is entered as Unmarried.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Names :Scriven, Parlour, Vaughan, Pember,Price, Thompson, Rennie/Roney, Hannon,Taylor,Pitt,Brice
Places: Alveley, Bewdley, Rock, Dukinfield, Manchester,Limerick, Bishopstone/Dilwyn, Swarraton,Alverstoke, Middlesex
|
|
|
Little Nell
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 7265
|
The Rev Thomas Johnson would appear to have been born in London. Ellen & Penelope are his sisters. He attended Eton and his father was James.
Nell
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5
|
|
|
|
|
