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Topic: The Garniers of Winchester and environs (Read 2070 times)
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chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
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Yes, Scriv,
I found that entry, but as it said East Peckham, I thought that it meant Peckham, East London.
It's Malling, then... but I don't think that there's any confusion in the history. Because the family were in Alresford.
It is only a short jump from Wadhurst to Malling.
What I can't work out, though, if this is the same William and Frances is why they moved from West Sussex to Hampshire to have their children, just after they were married.
Incidentally there is an 1861 entry. It's up in Hackney London, and it's confusing, because it says that the couple, now in their 80s, came from London.
I can't track Emma back to 1841, nor William and Frances, yet. But she could have been the daughter of William Henry or John "Tompsett" Johnson.
I also think that I may have a better option for Thomas. Though it too has difficulties.
There's a marriage of a Thomas Heming Johnson to an Ann Halford, 31 July 1837 in the IGI, at St James Westminster. This is just within registration, I presume, as it says father's name William Johnson.
the same area as their first (only?) child later claims to have been born in.
then there is a second marriage of a Thomas Heming Johnson to a Mary Ann in FREEBMD for Mar Qtr 1844, in Barnet, which presumes that Ann Halford died shortly into their marriage.
It could be purely coincidence, but I checked for a death of a Mary Ann Johnson in FreeBMD for Beverley RD between 1844 and 1851, when we know that Thomas was a widower, and there was one. June Qtr 1847.
So it could all tie in. It would mean that Thomas had 4 wives, not three, in his life. But why is he sometimes having a middle name, and sometimes not? if there's none at his christening?
What all this really needs is the confirmation of the actual baptism entry for John "Trompett" Johnson in 1801 in New Alresford to see if that is a transcription error.
Other than that I'm not sure what to do now.
I suspect that there's a family business being undertaken. The entry for 1851 for William seems to say he is a tanner, foreman. Do I read that right? If so it ties in with the son's trade of leather merchant.
As Thomas Garnier Johnson is described at one point as a leather and oil merchant, I wondered if there might be a London based business going on, with Beverley as a supply point, and the Hampshire ports as a shipping place.
There is an entry in the 1829 directory for London on Ancestry for a Johnson Thos & co Oil and colourmen, 135 Aldgate and in the 1848 as Thos Johnson, wholesale oil warehouse. and William Johnson oil and colourman 136 Poplar High Street. How close might Oil and Colourmen be linked to the Leather trade, and just what kind of leather trade, I wonder?
Terry
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Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
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Little Nell
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 7262
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Can I ask Nell, if you can be sure that William Johnson and Frances did not marry in Hampshire?
If they did marry in Hampshire then it has been transcribed badly. I've looked carefully for it, including checking for a possible marriage licence in Hampshire. But moving to Sussex, I found this licence recorded at Lewes, dated 24 April 1796:
William Johnson, bachelor of New Alresford Hampshire, tanner, aged 22 upwards and Frances Thompsett, spinster of Wadhurst, aged 21 upwards. The sponsors were William Johnson and William Fuller of Lewes, mercer. The marriage took pace on 26 April 1796 in Wadhurst and William was recorded as of New Alresford, Hampshire.
I wondered if the name of another son of William and Frances, John Trompett Johnson might be a mistake for a much more expectable name Tompsett.
Yes, it is. I have found a different transcription which gives the names as John Tompsett Johnson, baptised 4 Feb 1801 in New Alresford.
I think that Thomas would also have used the Port of London as his shipping point, rather than the Hampshire ports. It would make much more sense if the business was London based.
Nell
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chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
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To paraphrase "Cleggy"
"I like it! Confirmation"
That seems to tie in the Tompsett-Johnson marriage categorically.
I had already more or less shelved the oil merchants link, as the 1819 directory still gives Thomas and co, which is just too early for Thomas to be in charge of it.
So that leaves William resident in Alresford, for some reason.
There is a William christened in Wadhurst of the right age, more or less, to another William.
But the 1851 census puts him as born in Waldron.
What I like most is that he was a tanner too. So that ties in with the 1851 census entry. There's a nice web coming together to hang other possible facts on , to say yea or nay to.
Thanks for that.
Terry
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Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
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chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
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This then is the outcome :
I found the 1841 census entry for William and Frances in East Peckham.
They were named Johnston, instead of Johnson, which is why I had trouble with ancestry's index.
They were in an extended household, with a Joseph Edward Atkinson and wife Esther. Suspecting she might be family, I checked and found a marriage 31 Oct 1836 Charlton St Luke Kent for Joseph Edward Atkinson and Esther Johnson.
This then led to finding a chain of baptisms, for her, and six other children of William and Frances Johnson in St Mary Magdalene Bermondsey. These range from 1802 to 1818. Joseph; Charles; Emma; James; Esther; Henry and Alfred.
Clearly the family moved from Alresford to Bermondsey after the birth of John Tompsett Johnson in 1801.
I'd already come across Charles, their 6th son, chr 1805, in the 1841 census at William's Place Southwark. Also a tanner, he stuck in my mind. It was his daughter Emma was with her grandparents in East Peckham in 1851.
Further, I found an entry in the 1808 London directory for a business called Johnson and Fox - tanners, at Grange Walk, Bermondsey. This is slap in the middle of St Mary Magdalene.
That's the family business I was looking for, I'm sure of it. In the area the Leathermarket would be, I believe, built later, in 1833.
It only remains to find out why William was in Alresford.
And find the marriage of William's son Thomas - and their 1841 census entry - I have abandoned the idea of the marriage of Thomas Heming Johnson, as there was a marriage of a William Johnson to a Jane Hemming in Oxfordshire in 1819 that would seem to relate to that Thomas better.
This search has been very successful.
Terry
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Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
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scriv2
RootsChat Member
Posts: 167
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Just wondering about ...
Thomas and Harriett Johnson found in 1841 in Aldergate Street, St Botolph Aldersgate, Middlesex.... both born abt 1796 in other counties and entered as Ind...they reside alongside other merchants (corn and silk).
Could this Harriett be nee Harriett Garnier, daughter of William and Harriet/Henrietta/Lady North who dies 26 Aug 1841 according to an entry on the IGI?
There is a also death entry for Harriet Johnson in Whitechapel for the Sep Q ref :vol 2 page 405
Could the reason that there is no sign of son Thomas, be that Harriett is very ill, so he is being looked after elsewhere? And the reason why Thomas junior is known as Thomas Garnier after his mother had died i.e. not baptised as such.
There is an IGI entry for Harriet Garnier's marriage, but it is a bit vague...
Harriet Garnier
Birth: 06 JUN 1804 Rookesbury, , Hampshire, England
Death: 26 AUG 1841
Spouse: T. OR Esquire Deacon Marriage: After 1827 Rookesbury, , Hampshire, England
Apologies if you have already been this way and ruled it out..
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Names :Scriven, Parlour, Vaughan, Pember,Price, Thompson, Rennie/Roney, Hannon,Taylor,Pitt,Brice
Places: Alveley, Bewdley, Rock, Dukinfield, Manchester,Limerick, Bishopstone/Dilwyn, Swarraton,Alverstoke, Middlesex
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Little Nell
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 7262
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Some of the entries on the IGI for this family are - at best - only guesses. They have been submitted by LDS members or patrons, but do not necessarily have much basis in fact. The date may be about right, but the location is not. I have checked very carefully in Hampshire for Garnier marriages. Harriet did marry Jonathan Phillips Carpenter and there are some family members who lived at Rooksbury in the 19th century named Carpenter Garnier, but the marriage did not take place in Hampshire.
Nell
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chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
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To confirm the facts on the St Mary Magdalene baptisms, I have ordered the transcription for St Mary Magdalene from Dockland ancestors.com for 1780s -1811, which should give Joseph, Charles, Emma, James and Esther, and hopefully confirm his trade, street address, if I'm lucky. And I hope may make a few of William Johnson's working colleagues accessible too.
I can't be too sure about the Thomas and Harriet entry, though I did spot it.
I don't think it seemns likely to me that T.Deacon is a misreading for T.Johnson, but you never can tell with transcriptions, as the John Trompett case shows.
I'm going to scour the 1841 census for other of the later batch of children. I do seem to recall seeing a Joseph Johnson tanner, somewhere. So I'll have a look for him.
Terry
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Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
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chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
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Update :
The St Mary Magdalene baptism CD arrived.
The earlier baptisms, including the one in 1808 give the parents as William and Frances Johnson , with William, tanner of Grange Walk. I found one more baptism, of a Mary Ann, so I now have the full compliment of 12 children.
Of these I have found four for certain.
Esther, bp 1811 Charles bp 1805, who I already mentioned, and Henry bp 1816, who must have married a sister of Joseph Atkinson, judging by his marriage to Mary Hannah Atkinson in 1838; and to cap it all brother Alfred, who married the Elizabeth Saxby in the 1841 census entry living at the same address as William and Frances Johnson in East Peckham.
They all interlink, and I think it's more or less proven.
So I'm left with
(1)the Garnier question, in what way -if any - does the surname enter the Johnson family.
(2) can I find out more about the company "Johnson and Fox" of the first decade of the nineteenth century?
and (3) The only Alfred Johnson that I can find for 1841 appears to be in the Maidstone barracks with a group of Lancers, but I can't define which group of Lancers. He must be about to be discharged, if it is him, as he marries Elizabeth Saxby in Jun Qtr 1842 according to the FreeBMD index.
Terry
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Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
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chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
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A further Update..
I contacted a writer on another website, who was researching the Thompsetts, and she has pointed me towards Rootsweb World Connect.
On there there is the name that we have been looking for.
A name for Thomas Johnson's 1st wife.
Laure Jeanne Marie Charlotte GARNIER !!!
What did I say?
" Name: Thomas Garnier JOHNSON
Given Name: Thomas Garnier
Surname: JOHNSON
Sex: M
Birth: 8 JUN 1836 in Bowbells,London,England (?)
Death: 7 JUN 1919 in Binscarth,Manitoba,Canada
Father: Thomas Sr. JOHNSON
Mother: Laure Jeanne Marie Charlotte GARNIER
Marriage 1 Sophia Helen TAYLOR b: 1829 in Hull,Yorkshire,England
Married: ABT 1857 in Beberley,Yorkshire,England
Children
Thomas Garnier Jr. JOHNSON b: 4 JUN 1858 in Beverley,Yorkshire,England
William Louis JOHNSON b: 20 MAR 1860 in Beverley,Yorkshire,England
Marie Louise JOHNSON b: 3 FEB 1862 in Beverley,Yorkshire,England
Henry James JOHNSON b: 1 APR 1865 in Beverley,Yorkshire,England
John Philip JOHNSON b: 14 APR 1867 in Beverley,Yorkshire,England
Laura Sophia JOHNSON b: 2 SEP 1868 in Beverley,Yorkshire,England
Charles Taylor JOHNSON b: 30 AUG 1871 in Beverley,Yorkshire,England "
these match up completely with the facts as I know them.
What we have to do now is pin Laure Jeane down amongst the Garniers.
Terry
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Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
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scriv2
RootsChat Member
Posts: 167
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Wow, excellent stuff, Terry...that is great. At last a link to the surname. 
I have found two entries for Thomas garnier Johnson on Rootsweb's World Connect by searching Thomas Garnier Johnson...one giving Bow Bells and another Westminster.
Two different researchers with an email address, so could be worth following up if you haven't already done so.
Laure is there and given as born in Geneva...Thomas Johnson Snr is given as born in Abbotsford, Herts in 1798.
Also on the IGI, Pedigree File, is an entry for the marriage of Thomas G to Sophia in Beverley, also with file references and a contact address.
If you have difficulty finding these links let me know and I can PM them to you.
Barbara
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Names :Scriven, Parlour, Vaughan, Pember,Price, Thompson, Rennie/Roney, Hannon,Taylor,Pitt,Brice
Places: Alveley, Bewdley, Rock, Dukinfield, Manchester,Limerick, Bishopstone/Dilwyn, Swarraton,Alverstoke, Middlesex
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chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
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Got them, thanks, Barbara
So the Garnier connection is a Swiss one!
The Grand Tour do you think?
Or maybe he was in the army and for some reason went there.
As far as I can judge, this makes the family for 1841 the entry in Rothwell Northamptonshire, of Thomas ( trade : police), and Marie - it says Fr for foreign, and Thomas (jr) age 5. I spotted it on my trawl, but could't see why he should have been a policeman, when everywhere else he was in the leather trade.
who knows.
I believe that if he married as an Englishman abroad, in 1827 - that seems a bit early if they only had one son in 1836! - given his father and mother's output ) there might be a possibility that he is recorded in the lists for the Diocese of London, from Geneva, kept at the Guildhall Library archives in London.
That's a thing to do next time I get to the "Smoke"
By the way, as you say, one of the baptisms in the Rootsweb site for Thomas Garnier Johnson, gives Westminster St Margarets, which fits. There's no IGI coverage for St margaret's for that period.
I imagine the other comes from that old saying " born within the sight of Bow Bells"
I tried to e-mail the woman with the best info and Johnson connection, but my e-mail was returned as the address was unrecognised.
Terry
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Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
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chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
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It looks as if the following are the final answers to this question about the Garniers, courtesy of a Johnson descendant in Canada.
Despite my attempts to find the baptism of Thomas Garnier in Westminster St Margaret's, he is supposed to have been baptised there on Feb 28 1836. I want to confirm this.
But, the origin of Laure Marie Garnier was:
She was the youngest of several daughters of Louis Garnier, (son of Robert Garnier of Geneva and Ann Maire Cheminas) and Jeanne Elisabeth Vincent. He says that she was governess to the Duke of Hamilton's family in England, before her marriage to Thomas Johnson, not in geneva , as the Rootsweweb site suggested, but St George Hanover Square, on May 27th 1827.
He concurs about the company Johnson and Fox, which he dates to 1802 - 1823. There was also a Johnson's factory in Beverley. All of our research has produced evidence that is confirmed by his research, which is nice to see.
Thank you very much George.
And to Nell, Scriv, and everyone else, who contributed to the search.
Terry
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Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
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scriv2
RootsChat Member
Posts: 167
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Great news, Terry! A very interesting search!
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Names :Scriven, Parlour, Vaughan, Pember,Price, Thompson, Rennie/Roney, Hannon,Taylor,Pitt,Brice
Places: Alveley, Bewdley, Rock, Dukinfield, Manchester,Limerick, Bishopstone/Dilwyn, Swarraton,Alverstoke, Middlesex
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chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
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Yes, it was, scriv,
I have now had confirmation of the two - Thos Garnier's baptism, and the marriage at St George Hanover Square, as he has sent me copies of what I take to be the Bishop's transcripts.
One last addenda - The Beverley "Johnson factory" should read "Johnson Tannery," which was in Railway Street Beverley. Thos Garnier Johnson was apparently one of the founders of the Beverley Building Society.
Terry
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Logged
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Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
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Mrs Misty
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 9
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I too have Thos. Garnier Johnson in my family. You have managed to find out more info than thee 3 pages I had and I've printed off all 20 pages of same..a little light bedtime reading!
I have a little more on the Garnier side, starting with Etienne around 1685.
Misty
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