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Topic: The Garniers of Winchester and environs (Read 2513 times)
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scriv2
RootsChat Member
Posts: 188
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Hi chafox...
There is also Frances Garnier ...on IGI : born abt. 1812 Of, Beverley, Yorkshire ....Death: 09 MAY 1877...Parents listed as William Garnier and Harriet or Henrietta OR LAdy North
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Names :Scriven, Parlour, Vaughan, Pember,Price, Thompson, Rennie/Roney, Hannon,Taylor,Pitt,Brice
Places: Alveley, Bewdley, Rock, Dukinfield, Manchester,Limerick, Bishopstone/Dilwyn, Swarraton,Alverstoke, Middlesex
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chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
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I'll try and answer the questions and firm up the information.
Firstly I have to agree that the Rev Thomas Johnson and presumably the Rev William Johnson in Hinton Ampner, are nothing whatsoever to do with my Thomas Johnson, or his father, William Johnson. I just had to look at that as there was a Rev Wm Johnson mentioned in an early trade directory for Alresford. It was the most obvious option and had to be researched, but has to be unconnected.
Thomas was a leather merchant, or traveller in the leather trade, who lived in Beverley Yorkshire in 1851, 1861 1871 and 1881. He died, I believe in 1882.
He was born according to the censuses in every case, in Alresford Hampshire.
and his son, Thomas Garnier Johnson, who was born in Westminster London, according to the censuses, was in Beverley from 1851 (age 15, when he was described as a apprentice tanner) to 1871, and was described as a leather merchant, or traveller in leather trade. In 1881 he is in Preston, West Leeds.
I can't track him or his family after that. Hence my assumption they emigrated, because it is Thomas G , and his daughter, Laura Sophia that are mentioned on the Canadian website by the look of it.
 I must apologise for the error on my first post where I called Thomas G Johnson "Sharman" by mistake. I'll rectify that once I've posted this.
Let me firm up where I come in. Thomas Sr's first wife ( name unknown) was the mother of Thomas Garnier Johnson. She died before 1851, as he is described as a widower then.
In 1853 he married an ancestral cousin of mine, Betsey Sharman, at St Andrew in the Wardrobe. This is how I know his father's name is William johnson, who is described simply as " a gentleman" . For years this fascinated me, but I couldn't get any further, until I got a sub to ancestry to have all the censuses, to search for them in 1861.
I know I have the right Thomas Johnson, because his 2nd wife Betsey is with him in the 1861 census. In 1871 he has her sister Rebecca Sharman with him. in 1881 he has his third wife Mary Ann (nee Agar) who is then 29 to his 82 !!
Incidentally I have been through Ancestry's whole Beverley census for 1841. Not easy as it is at least four parishes, and 37 enumeration districts! And can't find a firm candidate for him there, and no 5 year old Thomas G.
there are 33 separate entries for Johnsons in Beverley. I could not see the name Garnier.
So he is lost in the 1841 census somewhere, unknown to me.
I've tried searching for a John Trompett, William Henry and Edward Johnson in the early censuses, but no luck either. They must be Thomas (Sr) 's brothers.
that's the full picture, at present. I hope covers all queries.
I can't personally see how I can find the family beyond this, as they aren't on the IGI, and FreeREG isn't advanced enough yet to help. It's in that grey area beween 1800 and 1838 again.
Terry
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Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
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chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
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Yes, that looks good, but we do have one problem.
There is a house called Beverley house, in Wickham in Hampshire, where the Garniers were living in 1841 and 1851.
The house in 1851 was inhabited by Margaret Garnier, age 83, b Middlesex London.
I think Nell's suggestion was that the baptisms of Garniers that are recorded as Beverley Yorkshire, might actually be Beverley House, Wickham and someone transcribing it assumed it meant Beverley Yorkshire.
I wonder though if the fact might not be that the Garniers had dealings with Beverley Yorkshire at some point in their history, had children up there, and someone decided to name their house after a place which was important in their history.
that hinges on when the name Beverley House was given to the property in Wickham.
But you are right, it could be that this Frances Garnier is the one , because she certianly can't be the Frances Delme, nee Garnier, who was having children uptio 1807, if she was baptised in Beverley in 1812. But this could be a Frances, mother of Thomas Garnier Johnson, if she was the first wife of Thomas Johnson (Sr) . She'd be a possible age.
Terry
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Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
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scriv2
RootsChat Member
Posts: 188
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Oh drat!...
Just found on IGI ....Frances Esther Garnier
Death: MAR 1861
And with a Marriage: 01 AUG 1826 Rookesbury, , Hampshire, England to George William Horton
Sorry,Terry! Incidentally, are there any censuses on ancestry that you can't find?
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Names :Scriven, Parlour, Vaughan, Pember,Price, Thompson, Rennie/Roney, Hannon,Taylor,Pitt,Brice
Places: Alveley, Bewdley, Rock, Dukinfield, Manchester,Limerick, Bishopstone/Dilwyn, Swarraton,Alverstoke, Middlesex
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chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
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Thanks, but I really didn't expect that Thomas's wife would also be a Frances.
We know that his father, William,'s wife was Frances.
Nell's post gives one Frances, dr of George Garnier, who couldn't have been William Johnson's wife,
I'm assuming that my William Johnson married his Frances sometime before 1798. was she a Garnier? She wasn't that one. There could have been other children of other Garniers by that name.
If it is Thomas's first wife was a Garnier, then any of the daughters of William and Harriet could be candidates. And if they were born in Beverley (Yorkshire rather than the house ) it might go a long way to explaining the connection between Thomas Johnson in Beverley and his baptism in Hampshire, and a possible Garnier-Johnson marriage.
Terry
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Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
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scriv2
RootsChat Member
Posts: 188
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Yes..I agree they are elusive in 1841!
I have also found a marriage between a William Johnson and Frances Patrick in Kirk Ella, East Yorkshire, but it is in May 1798.
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Names :Scriven, Parlour, Vaughan, Pember,Price, Thompson, Rennie/Roney, Hannon,Taylor,Pitt,Brice
Places: Alveley, Bewdley, Rock, Dukinfield, Manchester,Limerick, Bishopstone/Dilwyn, Swarraton,Alverstoke, Middlesex
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chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
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Kirk Ella is pretty close to Beverley.
But it isn't a Garnier connection is it.
I wonder if this Frances Patrick was born in Beverley?
If it's the same William and Frances then they must already have conceived Thomas before the wedding.
perhaps Nell's godparenting surname of Garnier is what fits here after all.
Terry
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Logged
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Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
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scriv2
RootsChat Member
Posts: 188
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I have searched extensively but not been been able to find a link between Patrick and Garnier, so this is not really helping you.
I also found a birth of a Thomas Johnson in 1835 and baptism later in 1844 in London,Camberwell to Thomas Johnson and Eliza.....but again, no mention of Garnier at all.
I did wonder if Thomas and son were still in London in 1841?
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Names :Scriven, Parlour, Vaughan, Pember,Price, Thompson, Rennie/Roney, Hannon,Taylor,Pitt,Brice
Places: Alveley, Bewdley, Rock, Dukinfield, Manchester,Limerick, Bishopstone/Dilwyn, Swarraton,Alverstoke, Middlesex
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chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
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I thought that there were too many options for London baptisms for Thomas Johnson, to be certain, without the wife's name.
It could be the one you give.
I have just been following Frances Patrick back.
If it was her there's a baptism 14 June 1780 at rawcliffe by Goole Yks, to Joseph Patrick and Jane.
Which goes back to a Joseph Patrick and Jane Watson Kirk Ella 8 Mar 1774.
And a William Johnson bp 23 Aug 1767 at St John Beverley to William Johnson.
that is fine of course, and might be the whole story, but that it doesn't explain how the names Garnier and Trompett get into the family as middle names during the preceding generations. They are Huegenot names, and Patrick, Watson, aren't. Nor is Johnson.
The name Johnson is very common in Yorkshire, and there are many many William Johnsons. And Thomas Johnsons come to that.
Terry
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Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
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chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
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I just looked at the 1841 census for Lambeth and the entry for the Thomas and Eliza runs like this:
Thomas Johnson (30) lab
Eliza Johnson (25)
Thomas (5)
Edward (2)
This has Thomas Sr too young, and I would feel less than happy with him as a "labourer" given his trade and that he "says" his father was a gentleman.
There's a better candidate in the 1841 census in Beverley who was the right age, but a lab, and I didn't like that.
the only difference being that this has the son of the right age.
There's a 1851 entry for as Thomas and Eliza in Lambeth. That gives Thomas (46) and Eliza (35) born Kent, and a different group of children, with the oldest, a Thomas (9) .
Maybe that's the same family but the original Thomas and Edward had died.
I agree it looks the most likely IGI entry by date (1833-7), the very best being the Thomas born in 1835 in Westminster - only the IGI says that he was buried shortly afterwards.
Terry
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Logged
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Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
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scriv2
RootsChat Member
Posts: 188
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Oh dear....none of that seems right, does it? Sorry. 
We need some inspiration.
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Names :Scriven, Parlour, Vaughan, Pember,Price, Thompson, Rennie/Roney, Hannon,Taylor,Pitt,Brice
Places: Alveley, Bewdley, Rock, Dukinfield, Manchester,Limerick, Bishopstone/Dilwyn, Swarraton,Alverstoke, Middlesex
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chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
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It just struck me.
The Yorkshire marriage doesn't work.
I had forgotten that William Johnson had a son before Thomas baptised in Alresford:
William Henry baptism in Alresford on 20 Sept 1797.
With that baptism then, and Thomas in November the following year, both in Alresford, the idea that the Kirk Ella marriage is the one we are looking for, has to go out of the window.
And that brings us back to looking for a marriage back in Hampshire, perhaps, prior to 1797.
Which is a good thing, as we're in the Hampshire message Board not the Yorkshire one.
Terry
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Logged
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Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
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chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
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I have been thinking about this overnight.
Can I ask Nell, if you can be sure that William Johnson and Frances did not marry in Hampshire?
In an earlier post you seem to make a categorical statement to that effect.
however, there are gaps on the IGI for Hampshire, and the Knightroots website has baptisms for New Alresford, not marriages.
I think that the most likely bet is that there is a marriage somewhere in the Hampshire parishes.
Isn't that the best place to look for the marriage of William, and Frances, who then baptise their children in New Alresford. Rather than trying to dig candidates out of the whole of the IGI for the rest of the country ?
Terry
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Logged
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Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
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chafox
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 95
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I found a web tree that may help to answer the puzzle of William Johnson.
I hope nobody minds me writing two replies in a row to myself
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~michcgs/Hugonis_Tomsett_Report.html
I wondered if the name of another son of William and Frances, John Trompett Johnson might be a mistake for a much more expectable name Tompsett. Old records being hard to read.
And so I googled, and this came up.
16. FRANCES8 TOMPSETT (....... was born December 08, 1774 in Wadhurst, Sussex, England, and died December 1856. She married WILLIAM JOHNSON April 02, 1796. He was born Abt. 1774.
This is in the IGI Frances m William Johnson 2 April 1796 Wadhurst Sussex
terry
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Logged
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Whitehouse -Pelsall: Norton canes
Kirby - Hillmorton, Warks; Ashby Leics
Lloyd - London, Surrey
White - Frowlesworth; Narborough, Leics
Deeming - Walsgrave, Corley Warks; Hoxton,London
Bray - Sapcote, Leics
Bentley,Whitehouse - the potteries
Paxton Adkins - Claydon and Cropredy, Oxon
Cooper - Coventry, Hoxton London
Opperman - Limehouse, Hannover
Duffey - Bristol, BVrighton, Marylebone
Davis - Landkey, Ilfracombe, Devon
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scriv2
RootsChat Member
Posts: 188
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If you are following this line through, have you seen the 1851 census on ancestry.co.uk where she and William are with granddaughter Emma Johnson?
Also, they are resident in Aylesford, Malling,Kent.... could this have been mis read as Alresford somehere along the way?
Just a thought
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Logged
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Names :Scriven, Parlour, Vaughan, Pember,Price, Thompson, Rennie/Roney, Hannon,Taylor,Pitt,Brice
Places: Alveley, Bewdley, Rock, Dukinfield, Manchester,Limerick, Bishopstone/Dilwyn, Swarraton,Alverstoke, Middlesex
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