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Topic: Catherine Buchan nee Guthrie (Read 474 times)
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MerRhosyn
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 48
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Would anyone be able to help me locate a marriage or death record for a Catherine Buchan nee Guthrie?
I believe she was born in 1811 (Katherine) in Dunbarney, Perth to William Guthrie. She likely married James Buchan some time before the birth of their three children - James (1836), William (1838), and John (1840).
I'm running into some trouble with her in the context of a daughter of James Buchan, Jane Buchan. Jane's marriage record for 1865 says she is the daughter of James Buchan and Catherine Buchan nee Guthrie. Jane's death record for 1924 (Jane Cattanach) says she is the daughter of James Buchan and Janet Buchan nee Guthrie.
I have a 1841 Scotland census for James, Catherine, James, William, and John Guthrie. I have a marriage record for James Buchan and Janet McAra in 1842. And then three births for James and Janet - Jean (1843), JaneT (1844), and Mungo (1850). I have a 1851 Scotland census for James, William, John, Jean, JaneT, and Mungo. Janet McAra isn't listed, but there are other McAra family members on the same page.
If Catherine died between the June 1841 census and James' marriage to Janet McAra in 1842, that would probably confirm Jane as the daughter of James and Janet...not of James and Catherine Guthrie or James and Janet "Guthrie."
Thanks in advance and sorry if this explanation is confusing! Let me know if any additional details would be helpful - I have most of the sources for these facts handy.
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Perthshire: Robertson, Heggie, Cattanach, Buchan
Lanarkshire: Simmonds, Purdon, Risk
Kent: Burt, Pratt, Salmon, Packman, Back, Jewiss, Best
Essex: Clark, Fowler
Hampshire: Simmonds, Whettam
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9109
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Hi MerRhosyn
 Well I'm completely confused too!
Jane's birth/christening entries on 25 FEB 1844/10 MAR 1844 in Auchterarder are actual extract from the OPRs and certainly show her as daughter of Janet McAra. Janet, next daughter looks to have been born c. 1845/6? going by her age in the 1851 census. You have the marriage of father James Buchan to Janet McAra in 1842, so certainly she would appear to be Jane's mother.
It is strange though how Jane showed Catherine Gurthrie as mother in her MC and her first born daughter born the year following her marriage to James Cattanach was called Catherine Guthrie Cattanach, normally called after maternal grandmother
Similarly, sister Janet who married Robert Ewing a few months later in 1865 also called her first born daughter Catherine who was born in 1866. I wonder who she put down as mother in her 1865 marriage to Robert? Submitted details for Janet on IGI also show mother as Catherine Guthrie (I wonder if the info came from a cert.?)
The facts are as they are, the confusion is from the information provided by Jane. The reasons why not sure if you will determine unfortunately 
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9109
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Have you looked at father James' death cert? Quite often, although not always unfortunately, names of all spouses are shown. It doesn't help with the dates of Catherine's death but will hopefully confirm the two marriages for him.
There are Monumental Inscriptions (MIs) for Fowlis Wester: Perthshire Monumental Inscriptions (pre 1855) in South Perthshire. Hopefully someone here on RC may have access to this information and be able to check for Catherine Guthrie's death, if available. I cannot however see a marriage for Catherine and James Buchan in the OPRs unfortunately.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MerRhosyn
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 48
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Monica -
Yes, I do have James Buchan's death certificate and it only lists Catherine Guthrie as his wife. He died in Methven on May 1st 1875.
Thank you for your suggestions!
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Perthshire: Robertson, Heggie, Cattanach, Buchan
Lanarkshire: Simmonds, Purdon, Risk
Kent: Burt, Pratt, Salmon, Packman, Back, Jewiss, Best
Essex: Clark, Fowler
Hampshire: Simmonds, Whettam
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9109
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Ahhh, even more confusing if James Buchan's DC states he was only married to Catherine Guthrie. Who does Mungo show as mother on his marriage cert, have you managed to look at that one?
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MerRhosyn
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 48
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I hadn't pulled that one yet, but more confusion now that I have!
August 1874 Methven, Perth Mungo Buchan marries Ann Simmie. Mungo's parents are listed as James Buchan and Catherine Buchan nee Guthrie. Mungo is said to be 25, which aligns with him being less than 1 year old on the 1851 census.
Also haven't looked into the third child (Jean) with Janet McAra as the suggested mother. Don't know that I could figure out how to locate a marriage record for her, as I would need a husband's surname.
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Perthshire: Robertson, Heggie, Cattanach, Buchan
Lanarkshire: Simmonds, Purdon, Risk
Kent: Burt, Pratt, Salmon, Packman, Back, Jewiss, Best
Essex: Clark, Fowler
Hampshire: Simmonds, Whettam
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MerRhosyn
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 48
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Mungo Buchan's death certificate from 1925 also lists James Buchan and Catherine Guthrie as his parents.
I can't find a birth record for Mungo. When I search the OPRs up until 1854, no Mungo shows up as being born around 1850. When I search for last name Buchan in Perth, the three children of James and Catherine and the two children of James and Janet show up...but no Mungo. Doesn't look like he appears in the 1855- range either. Both his marriage and death certificate indicate that he was born around 1850, as well as five census reports from 1851, 1861, 1881, 1891, 1901.
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Perthshire: Robertson, Heggie, Cattanach, Buchan
Lanarkshire: Simmonds, Purdon, Risk
Kent: Burt, Pratt, Salmon, Packman, Back, Jewiss, Best
Essex: Clark, Fowler
Hampshire: Simmonds, Whettam
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9109
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So frustrating makes you want to scream 
There is a website link on the family that seems to no longer be available. The google link reads:
Name, Jane Guthrie Buchan133. Birth, 1843, Fowlis Wester, Perth, Scotland133,133 ... Notes for Jane Guthrie Buchan. Jane's mothe died when the family was ... 
jackfamilytree.homedns.org:8080/PS33/PS33_015.HTML
You have 3 marriage certs for the 1840s children:
Jane Buchan = James Cattanach
Janet Buchan = Robert Ewing
Mungo Buchan = Ann Simmie
They are showing mother as Catherine Guthrie.
You also have James, father's death cert with no mention of second marriage to Janet McAra. I can understand no mention of first wife's name on death certs. but not the other way round.
I'm not sure about the names for Mungo's children, but both Jane and Janet called their first born daughter Catherine after their mother you would imagine.
Also, was Catherine Guthrie's mother Jean Martin? James Buchan's mother was Janet Taylor. So after having the first three boys in the 1830s and using their father's names, it makes sense to then use their mothers' names when they began to have girls.
Could the marriage you have found for a James Buchan and Janet McAra be simply a co-incidence? Did you look at the OPR entry for the marriage in 1842, was there any additional info to let you confirm it is the right James Buchan I wonder. Janet McAra's parents look to be Donald and Margaret (Ritchie). I would have thought that Janet McAra would have called her first born daughter after her mother.
We need a OPR death entry for Catherine...which is where you started on your original post. Have you checked to see whether there are Monumental Inscriptions (MIs) for Fowlis Wester?
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9109
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OK, figured out another access link to jackfamily tree, see http://jackfamily.dyndns.org:8080/WC10/WC10_192.HTML This includes a photo of James Cattannach.
The note that stopped at the critical bit: Notes for Jane Guthrie Buchan
Jane's mothe died when the family was young and she was brought up by a grandmother, who was blind.
http://jackfamily.dyndns.org:8080/PS33/PS33_015.HTML
I originally accessed the site via http://jackfamily.dyndns.org:8080/
I get the feeling (with over 20,000  ) that a number of the trees included here may have been added by other parties. There are contact details there and the site recently modified, maybe an email requesting further info on the submitter may be a good idea!
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MerRhosyn
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 48
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Monica -
Ok, I think this is starting to make some sense. I missed some of your questions.
On the MC between Janet Buchan and Robert Ewing, Janet listed Catherine Guthrie as her mother.
Mungo Buchan's children with Ann Simmie are James, George, William, Mungo, Jessie, Mary Ann, and John.
I have Catherine Guthrie's father as William from her baptism record. No mother is listed, so I don't know if it is Jean Martin...
If the only piece of the puzzle is why Jane Cattanach nee Guthrie's DC lists mother as Janet Buchan...maybe it's an error. I can see that she was raised by the grandmother, Janet Buchan nee Taylor. Jane's husband was already dead by the time she died in 1924. The informant is a son, who could well have been confused about Jane's mother's name.
The MC for James Buchan and Janet McAra could be for a different James Buchan. And I could have just been reading too much into them all living right next door to each other...haha.
Perhaps Catherine died giving birth to Mungo? This would explain why on the 1851 census there is Dad, the youngest five children, two of whom were shown in 1841 along with Catherine, and grandmother, who was also on the same page in 1841.
This link looks great...I will do some more exploring!
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Perthshire: Robertson, Heggie, Cattanach, Buchan
Lanarkshire: Simmonds, Purdon, Risk
Kent: Burt, Pratt, Salmon, Packman, Back, Jewiss, Best
Essex: Clark, Fowler
Hampshire: Simmonds, Whettam
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Geanie
RootsChat Pioneer
Posts: 1
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Hi, I am related to Catherine Buchan nee Guthrie through my mothers side of the family, her father was Thomas Jack Cattanach. The reason you are getting confused with Jane Buchan is because there were two born about the same time and both fathers were called James Buchan and they both lived in Fowlis Wester. I have all copies of birth marriage and death for the Buchan family, plus census. If you would like any information i am more than happy to pass it on to you. Julie
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MerRhosyn
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 48
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Julie -
I would love to receive any information (copies of certificates, census, etc.) you can provide me about Catherine Buchan and the Buchan family. You can contact me via e-mail at niamhaine at hotmail dot com.
Thanks!
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Perthshire: Robertson, Heggie, Cattanach, Buchan
Lanarkshire: Simmonds, Purdon, Risk
Kent: Burt, Pratt, Salmon, Packman, Back, Jewiss, Best
Essex: Clark, Fowler
Hampshire: Simmonds, Whettam
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