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Topic: Germany: wagner came from germany to uk (Read 729 times)
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pixiechick
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 24
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi
I am researching my daughter in laws family for her. We have come across her family Wagner in the census' as she is from Gertrude Wagner's line who is aged 2 living in Weston super mare on the 1881 census where it shows Christopher as her father being born in Germany and a musician. I have traced back to 1841 census and there I have found Christopher with other members of the family all stated as being foreign and all musicians. They obviously came from Germany sometime together and settled at Broadmead Bristol. 
I have tried to find them on the family search site and have possibilities.
I really would appreciate help in this as I want to be sure that I am tracing the right Christoph Wagner and would like to find exactly where they came from in Germany.
Many thanks
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« Last Edit: Saturday 14 March 09 10:42 GMT (UK) by Berlin-Bob »
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Sue15
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 412
No one is too old to need a Teddy Bear
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Hello Pixiechick
I have just had a look at the 1881 census for Christopher Wagner. I note the entry states he is a Naturalised British Subject.
It maybe worth looking at the National Archives website for documents relating to Naturalization
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=242&j=1
You need to find a place of birth for Germany as there is no central registration system. The best chance of finding this information is from Naturalisation records.
Best wishes
Sue
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Davies- Llandegly, Cefnllys
Lloyd, Old and New Radnor Glascwm
Holl, Radnor, Kington
Mannering(s), Chatham Hinckley
England & Iliffe in Hinckley
Whitlock, Wilts, Glos and Cardiff
Howell, Cardiff
Hoddinott, Sturminster Newton, - Weston S Mare
Thymian Eiling, Rahmer, Heitmuller -Hanover and Braunchsweig Germany
Wellings- Shropshire
Weaver . Cinderford and Walford Herefordshire also Ross, Australia & Pontypridd
Thomas - Williamstown, Tonypandy
Trembath - Cornwall & Williamstown Wales
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jorose
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4606
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The Christopher Wagner in 1841 is 24, and 40 years later the one in 1881 is only 46.
I don't think that these are the same person (unless you have him consistently enough through all censuses that you can prove that this is the same person who has reduced his age as he married a younger wife). There seems to be only one Christopher Wagner in 1871 that I can see - and this is the Durham-residing Christopher who is also in 1881 and is definitely not the same as yours.
Ideally you would want to get his marriage certificate first - IGI submitted records show that his wife may have been Mary "Emlem" Edwards - this marriage is indexed on freebmd.rootsweb.com in 1872 - Christopher Wagner and Mary Emlen/Emien Edwards, and is at the right time/right place. That will give his father's name and occupation, and also an address and witness names in 1871 which might help if you're trying to work out how and with who he came to England.
You might look into the William Wagner aged 30 who is also in Weston Super Mare in 1881 - also b. Germany and also a musician. He would be a possible brother.
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Sue15
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 412
No one is too old to need a Teddy Bear
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Further to the reply to Jorose there is a Christopher Wagner living in Weston Super Mare 1891 aged 69 years making him born in 1822.
To confuse matters further when looking at Deaths there are the following
Christopher Wagner MQ 1893 Axbridge (covers Weston S Mare) 5c 397 aged 66
Christopher Wagner MQ 1911 Sunderland 10a 389 aged 71
I also note on An****ry there is a family tree showing a Christopher Wagner born 1824 Bavaria. To learn more a direct enquiry is required.
Sue
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Davies- Llandegly, Cefnllys
Lloyd, Old and New Radnor Glascwm
Holl, Radnor, Kington
Mannering(s), Chatham Hinckley
England & Iliffe in Hinckley
Whitlock, Wilts, Glos and Cardiff
Howell, Cardiff
Hoddinott, Sturminster Newton, - Weston S Mare
Thymian Eiling, Rahmer, Heitmuller -Hanover and Braunchsweig Germany
Wellings- Shropshire
Weaver . Cinderford and Walford Herefordshire also Ross, Australia & Pontypridd
Thomas - Williamstown, Tonypandy
Trembath - Cornwall & Williamstown Wales
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pixiechick
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 24
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Many thanks for your postings Sue and Jorose. I have come across the same problems as you ie the ages don't tally for Christopher. Although looking at the 1881 and 1891 census the children and their ages match and I found Gertrude on a separate 1881 census in service at age 12. They do seem to have disappeared from the census's for 1861 and 1871 so now wondering if he came over to UK around that time and not with the 1841 group although he married in 1872 ? I have sent for the marriage certificate so hopefully I will get further information from that.
I looked at the national archives for the passenger lists and naturalization lists which seem to start in 1844 which is a bit late for the 1841 group that are listed but I will look again now as it could be this Christopher came over later. Will let you know if I find out anything.
Many thanks again
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pixiechick
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 24
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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An Update. I now have the marriage certificates for Gertrude and her father.
Gertrude married Henry Watts Dec 27 1897 aged 21 living in Weston super mare her father Christopher Wagner listed as deceased, musician. Witnessed by Richard August Wagner and Emma Wagner, I believe this is her brother and his wife as I have found marriage record for Richard and Emma Lovell Sept 1897
Christopher Wagner married Mary Emlen Edwards 8 Dec 1872 living in Weston super mare. He is listed as a widower, musician and his father is Christopher Wagner and a farmer. Mary's father is Frank Edwards, Mason. Witnesses Frederick Baldus and the other one is hard to read looks like Edenry Yadley but this must be completely wrong as cannot find this name on census's however I found Frederick Baldus and he is on the census living in Weston s mare also a musician from Germany b c1846 !! The ages are listed as 'full' what does that mean??? 
So I have found another Christopher (Christopher's dad) and Christopher was a widower when he married Mary. The ages on the certificate haven't helped me at all so wondering if Gertrude's birth cert will help.
Now trying to find Christopher Wagner farmer.
Any help and suggestions would be most welcome.
Many thanks
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O1dgobbo
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 858
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hi
Full age means that they declared themselves as 21 or over for the wedding. Ages on marriage certificates are often unreliable - under-age people claim to be of full age and older people sometimes knock a few years off to pretend that they are about the same age as their younger partner.
Good luck
Gobbo
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Fife - Co?per, Dun, Jackson
NE England - Harland, Hasted, Heaviside, Longridge, Thompson
SE England - Drawbridge, Hall, Hayward, Howard, Newell, Seward, Slade, Smith
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pixiechick
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 24
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi
Thanks for your help. I guessed it was probably because he didn't want his age known as he married a younger woman!
I have found someone who's great grandfather was Christopher Wagner 
and he confirms that Christopher or Christoff did alter his age and even on his death certificate apparently it shows 66yrs of age when in fact he was 72.
He says that he came in 1840/1/2 with a group of Musicians arriving in Dover via Belgium. He also seems to think that he wasn't naturalised as he couldn't find him at Kew but that is all the information he has.
Now the problem is to try and find out where in Germany he came from. Any ideas where to go next ?
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Sue15
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 412
No one is too old to need a Teddy Bear
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Dear Pixiechick
The big problem with German genealogy is nothing is centralised and there are no state census records. One needs to know the area a person came from to check in this case church records as his arrival in GB was before local civil registration started in Germany.
My advice is to look for clues in his life. Did he leave a will- ? Is there a memorial grave stone for him in Weston Super Mare - which may offers some more details?
I know of a very good local historian in Weston Super Mare - who may have looked at the history of the family. This chap is often to be found in WSM library compelling family histories.
Let me know and I will PM you his details - or try WSM reference library - they hold quite a few trees.
The name Christopher can also be spelt Christoph.
Wishing you luck
Sue
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Davies- Llandegly, Cefnllys
Lloyd, Old and New Radnor Glascwm
Holl, Radnor, Kington
Mannering(s), Chatham Hinckley
England & Iliffe in Hinckley
Whitlock, Wilts, Glos and Cardiff
Howell, Cardiff
Hoddinott, Sturminster Newton, - Weston S Mare
Thymian Eiling, Rahmer, Heitmuller -Hanover and Braunchsweig Germany
Wellings- Shropshire
Weaver . Cinderford and Walford Herefordshire also Ross, Australia & Pontypridd
Thomas - Williamstown, Tonypandy
Trembath - Cornwall & Williamstown Wales
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pixiechick
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 24
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks for the information Sue I will start searching for wills etc.
Yes if you could let me have the details of the historian in WS Mare I would be grateful although I would like to see how far I can get first and then call on him to fill in the blanks.
Many thanks again
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pixiechick
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 24
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Found Christopher Wagner's Arrival Certificates: He arrived with his group on 30th April, 1842 at Dover via Belgium. Native of Germany. The 1840 one is the same with the arrival date being 1st May. There is no mention of the ship's name or the port in Belgium.
Does anyone know where I go from here???
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jorose
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4606
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The most likely port of departure would be Antwerp; unfortunately I don't know that there are records back that early.
If you have a list of all the people who arrived with him, you could see if any of them became citizens, thus getting an idea of where they came from. Or if there's unusual
http://www.felixarchief.be/ - has some documents indexed supposedly something to do with registers of aliens but they seem to start at 1840. Not sure if these would involve those just passing through or those who settled down in Antwerp but there are some Wagners, if not your Christopher.
1861 census: 7 New Westgate Bldgs, Bath
Christopher Wagner, 40, musician, b. Germany Naturalised Subject
Emma, 36, dealer in old shoes, b. Bath
Christopher, 15
William, 8
Catherine, 11
Sarah, 5
(all b. Bath)
Elizabeth Calpen, wife's mother, formerly clothes dealer, b. Bath
Emma died in 1862.
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pixiechick
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 24
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Jorose, I clicked on the link you provided but as I cannot read or speak German I was stuck!
The Christopher you listed is him, his first wife was Emma then he remarried Mary Emlen Edwards and moved to Weston super Mare as listed in other posts.
On his marriage cert his father was Frederick Wagner a Farmer.
I will try and find the people he was with as you suggest in the hope it will lead somewhere
Many thanks
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jorose
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4606
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Well, German would only help a little - it's in dutch.  Google Translate should get you most of the way there, though.
Zoeken in archieven = search the archives.
http://www.felixarchief.be/Unrestricted/Zoeken_isad.aspx
Zoeken in index vreemdelingendossiers (district Antwerpen, 1840-1930)
= search the index of immigration registers (for the district of Antwerp)
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pixiechick
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 24
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Many thanks for the information. 
I found some Wagners but unfortunately not the ones I was looking for. They seemed to have french names so I don't think it was his family.
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