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Topic: Free Church Manse, Strathmartine (Read 523 times)
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gbugden
RootsChat Member
Posts: 155
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Hello
Daniel Marshall and Jessie Walker were married at this church manse: 20 June 1865. She was the daughter of James Walker a coach builder and she is my ancestor.
No mother is mentioned on her marriage cert.
I wonder who this mother might have been; I wonder if there are records about coach builders, which sounds a most interesting profession; and I wonder if anyone knows of a photo of the manse (I can't find anything when I google)?
Cheers
Greg
Australia
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9051
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Hi Greg
Daniel and Jessie look to have had a couple of children prior to their marriage in June 1865, from IGI at www.familysearch.org:
1. JESSIE MARSHAL OR WALKER Birth: 27 MAY 1862 Dundee
2. MARY STEWART MARSHALL OR WALKER Birth: 23 APR 1865 Dundee
This looks like the family in 1871 - all the children showing as born in Dundee:
David Marshall 40, Wholesale Provision Mercht, b. Perth, Perthshire
Mrs Marshall 40, b. Edinburgh
Matelda Marshall 11
Jessie Marshall 8
Margaret S Marshall 5...not sure if this is meant to be Mary who shows above born in 1865?
Ann Marshall 3
Daniel Marshall 9 months
Address: 3 Vault, Dundee
There is a birth showing on IGI for Matilda:
MATILDA WALKER Birth: 29 MAR 1860 Dundee - Mother: JESSIE WALKER
Monica 
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9051
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Daniel and Jessie with Matilda in 1861:
Daniel Marshall 27, Egg & C Dealer, b. Nk, Scotland
Jessie Walker 25, lodger, b. Edinburgh
Matilda McMardall 1, daughter, b. Dundee
Address: 3 Vault, Dundee
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9051
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The closest I can see for a James Walker, coach builder in the earlier censuses are these entries:
1841:
James Walker 40, Coach M
Helen Walker 35
Martha Walker 10
Janet Walker 5
Margaret Walker 5
Jean Walker 5
William Hanietton 30, Coach Smith
James Burns 20, Coach Trimmer
Address: Camperdown Court, Dundee
Everyone showing as born outside the County. As standard with the 1841 census, no relationships are shown within the household and ages for everyone over 15 are rounded down to the nearest 5 years.
1851 - everyone showing as born in Edinburgh:
James Walker 51, Coachmaker
Helen Walker 49
Margart Walker 15
Address: 57 Potterow, Edinburgh St Cuthberts
Greg, have you tried checking Jessie's death cert. to see whether it includes any information on her mother? It may be that the Helen showing above, if we have the right family for Jessie, may have been a second wife (?) and not the mother of Jessie. Also, James Walker's death cert. may include additional information of any other marriages and wives' names if known to the informant.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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kirkmichael
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 79
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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......snipped.................
Greg, have you tried checking Jessie's death cert. to see whether it includes any information on her mother? It may be that the Helen showing above, if we have the right family for Jessie, may have been a second wife (?) and not the mother of Jessie. Also, James Walker's death cert. may include additional information of any other marriages and wives' names if known to the informant.
Monica
Jessie MARSHALL MS WALKER died at the age of 51, of tuberculosis, in Dundee. See www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk for the details, including her mother's name. But the informant, daughter Mary, got her grandfather's name wrong, reporting it as John, but at least she gave him the correct occupation, - Coach Builder.
Her daughter Jessie was initially registered in 1862 as illegitimate as her parents weren't married, but the father, Daniel Marshall, Provision Merchant (Master), did the decent thing and turned up at the registrar's and also signed the entry in the Register Book of Marriages, thus admitting paternity.
Most unusually, there's an entry in the Register of Corrected Entries (RCE) confirming legitimation by the subsequent marriage of the parents. This is unusual, since, all that was required was an annotation to this effect in the margin of the entry, and then only at the request of the parents, i.e. there was no statutory requirement for this to be done.
In the early days of statutory registration in Scotland, however, there was some uncertainty over when the RCE process should be used; and this registrar was just playing safe!
Wullie
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gbugden
RootsChat Member
Posts: 155
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Hello MonicaLesl
Thanks for taking the time to reply. The census details for Jessie for 1871 and 1861 are right and fit with my data on the family.
I have no BDM dates for James Walker at all so pursuing his death cert is problematic. Though I could chance it from the census data you give; he would have been born about 1800 in Edinburgh.
However, The information on the Marriage cert. of Jessie Walker and David Marshall (jun 1865) says the father was certainly James Walker coach builder, but mother is listed as "unknown". I guess she must have done something terrible to be wiped from the family in this way.
I am told of a census entry for 1851 with a Jessie Walker, servant at "Humehall" aged 16 born Edinburgh c1835ish. This my be why she is not with the rest of her family in this and alter censuses. Her details also fit with other census data about Jessie Walker/Marshall. However, I don't know when she died.
Her husband seems to have gone by the forenames of both David and Daniel Marshall.
Cheers
Greg
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9051
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Hi Wullie, from your post, was there a mother's name showing on Jessie's death cert? Not Helen?
Greg, re James Walker, he looks to have moved over to Peebles for the 1861/71 censuses. There is a death showing there for a James Walker, b. 1797 which might be his.
1861:
James Walker 57, coachbuilder, b. Edinburgh
Helen Walker 54, b. Edinburgh
Martha Walker 28, b. Edinburgh
Elisabeth Walker 11, granddaughter, b. Dundee
Address: Northgate, Peebles
1871:
James Walker 72, Caniage Maker (?spl.), b. Canongate Edinburgh
Martha Walker 38, b. Canongate, Edinburgh
James Walker 7, grandson, b. Peebles
Address: Old Town, Peebles
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9051
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Greg
Hopefully, if the correct death certificate for James Walker, coach builder, it will confirm parents. There is an OPR entry showing in 1797 for the birth of a James Walker to a James Walker and Helen Wilson in Canongate Edinburgh. They look to have married in 1791 in Canongate:
Helen, daughter of John Wilson, carter, and James Walker, coachman 12 Dec 1791 www.scotsfind.org/databases_free/canongate.pdf
I hope you can verify through
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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kirkmichael
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 79
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Wullie, from your post, was there a mother's name showing on Jessie's death cert? Not Helen?
The mother's given name is shown as Helen.
Greg, re James Walker, he looks to have moved over to Peebles for the 1861/71 censuses. There is a death showing there for a James Walker, b. 1797 which might be his.
It might be, it might not be !, but it probably is.
This is one of these "highly useful" register entries where the informant is the Poors [sic] House Governor, but he only knows that the deceased was a widower, so no name of the spouse; occupation 'formerly a Coach Builder'; and no info on parents' names.
The occupation is the critical link.
I've no idea if any records survive from the Peebles Poor House (Peebles Combination Poorhouse, to give it its proper name).
Wullie
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gbugden
RootsChat Member
Posts: 155
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Hello Wully
I see that you have much important information to share. Thanks for taking the time to do so. I am trying to navigate the sites you have recommended. I'm a bit at sea with Scotland's People" though. I'll try again now and but when I have worked it out I think my tree will be much more compete. Your advice and that of Monica is terrific.
thanks
Greg
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kirkmichael
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 79
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hello Wully
I see that you have much important information to share. Thanks for taking the time to do so. I am trying to navigate the sites you have recommended. I'm a bit at sea with Scotland's People" though. I'll try again now and but when I have worked it out I think my tree will be much more compete. Your advice and that of Monica is terrific.
thanks
Greg
SP is straightforward !, but may need a small investment of time and money to become fluent.
Find your way to www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk .
If you haven't already registered then you need to go through that procedure. Kepp a careful note somewhere of the User name that you select, and your password.
If you are already registered then log on.
If you haven't already done so, you need to buy credits. They come in batches of 30 at £6 per batch.
Now you need to find the records that interest you in the relevant indexes, and then view digitised images of the original register entries of interest
On the main screen there's a pink box bottom left. Click on Deaths 1855 - 2006, and the index search screen comes up.
Enter the details, - in the surname field Marshall, and in the given name field Jessie, and restrict the year being searched to 1890.
Click Search and you'll get 4 matches. Click on View to spend the 1 credit necessary to view the list if index entries.
The one that interests you is No.2 on the list -
1890 MARSHALL JESSIE WALKER F 51 ST PETER DUNDEE CITY/ANGUS 282/01 0363 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER
Click on VIEW to see the digitised image of the actual register entry, - this costs 5 credits ['ORDER' is for ordering an official copy, a so-called extract, from GROS in Edinburgh, which costs £10.]
If you have problems viewing the image, then go into your proofile on SP and change the viewer used. I use "Direct Download".
It's then exactly the same procedure for the death register entry for James WALKER in 1878. Set the age at death to 81 and there may just be the one index entry that matches.
For the birth register entry for one of the children of Daniel MARSHALL and Jessie WALKER, change to the birth search screen, and, for young Jessie, enter surname as MARSHALL and given name as Jessie, restrict the year to 1862, and hit Search. The recors that you wnat is 282/02 0739 in Dundee.
After you've viewed the image you'll also see a red View RCE button at the top. Click on that at the cost of 2 credits to see the RCE entry.
The search screens may appear a wee bit intimindating and complicated at first, but they're not, really! Plus hitting one of the ? Help buttons at any time brings up excellent context sensitive help.
Go for it !
Wullie
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kirkmichael
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 79
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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The plot thickens !
gbuden originally wrote ...............
Daniel Marshall and Jessie Walker were married at this church manse: 20 June 1865. She was the daughter of James Walker a coach builder and she is my ancestor.
No mother is mentioned on her marriage cert.
Earlier today I had a chance to look at this marriage register entry.
Yes, on first glance, the space for the name of the mother of the bride is blank, but a further look made me realise that there is something very faintly written in this space, which, I'm near certain, starts 'Helen' ....
What follows 'Helen' is very difficult to make out; but, if contact is made with GROS and the situation explained, someone from GROS will have a look at the original register, in which it may well be just that bit clearer what was written !
MonicaLesl came up with the 1871 entry for the family, but the 1881 entry gives a very different place of birth for Jessie .........
13 Patons Lane, Liff & Benvie, Forfar [Angus]
Daniel MARSHALL 47 General Dealer b. Perth
Jessie MARSHALL 44 b England
Matilda MARSHALL 21 Dressmaker b. Dundee
Jessie MARSHALL 17 Factory Worker b. Dundee,
Mary MARSHALL 15 Factory Worker b. Dundee
Ann MARSHALL 13 Scholar b. Dundee
Daniel MARSHALL 9 Scholar b. Dundee,
Christina MARSHALL 8 Scholar b. Dundee
Wullie
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gbugden
RootsChat Member
Posts: 155
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Hello Wully
Your detailed instructions were just what I needed. I have made a preliminary search using the credits purchased and am now ready to explore more widely.
Your point about the mother of Jesse being Helen something is confirmed by the death record. However, her surname is very hard to interpret on that record too, so more searching is needed. How do i cite the marriage register entry you mention if i contact the GROS? Since i have not seen it I wonder how I should phrase my question. My information on the marriage comes from a researcher who viewed it in the 1980s and then it came to me by a third party source.
I have been worrying about the 1881 census record which seems to suggest Jesse was born in England. It must be an enumerator mistake. I have gone back over everything and to me it is seems to be the same woman; her children and spouse are consistent over the years.
I am so pleased to have had your help on all this, Wully. Just to find out about the Scottish people site has been well worth it.
Cheers For now
Greg
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kirkmichael
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 79
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hello Wully
Your detailed instructions were just what I needed. I have made a preliminary search using the credits purchased and am now ready to explore more widely.
Hi Greg
Good to hear!
Your point about the mother of Jesse being Helen something is confirmed by the death record. However, her surname is very hard to interpret on that record too, so more searching is needed.
Not really, - to my eyes at this end the maiden surname is very clearly " Stevenson "
How do i cite the marriage register entry you mention if i contact the GROS? Since i have not seen it I wonder how I should phrase my question. My information on the marriage comes from a researcher who viewed it in the 1980s and then it came to me by a third party source.
If you haven't already done so you need to buy the image on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk . Then, on the main search screen, right down at the bottom, you'll see a "Contact Us" button. Click on that and follow the procedure.
It's the (part) illegible image heading that you want.
Quote the index reference that led you to the image, along with the names involved.
I have been worrying about the 1881 census record which seems to suggest Jesse was born in England. It must be an enumerator mistake. I have gone back over everything and to me it is seems to be the same woman; her children and spouse are consistent over the years.
Such errors happen, sometimes the fault of the enumerator, sometimes the fault of a later indexer, and sometimes the fault of the person who filled in the shcedule from which the enumerator transcribed the info
I am so pleased to have had your help on all this, Wully. Just to find out about the Scottish people site has been well worth it.
My pleasure
Wullie
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gbugden
RootsChat Member
Posts: 155
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Yep it is Stevenson and now I have Helen's father, the date of her wedding and an engraving of St Cuthbert's church where the Banns were proclaimed.
I have used my credits though and will have to get some more. That site is an excellent resource!
Cheers Wully
Greg
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