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Topic: Cameron/Levy/Marks - birth Query (Read 3629 times)
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Lucy2
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3287
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Loz ... and Ian
Hmmm ... all the checks I've done to date, keep drawing me back to the Rangitikei area ... and one, (possibly two), "Hugh CAMERON's". 
Have just been able to eliminate "a Hugh" from Turakina - son of a Mr. A. CAMERON ... and the Ernest CAMERON's found in Wellington, have now all been ruled out.
That's interesting information Ian, about these CAMERON's who originated from the Fort William area (SCO).
I wonder if there might be a "COULDREY" surname in that area ? (I'm only guessing that "Couldrey" is a Scottish surname - and as Ernest and Adela gave their younger son this name, it seems probable it links back to the CAMERON family - rather than Adela's, Jewish family ?)
Loz ... I think another thing you could try, is a post on the AUS board, for the birth of Ernest Hugh CAMERON, somewhere in Australia. It's always possible he came to NZ as a child with his family ... or the other, that he came here, by himself, as a young man ?
[You said the Adela died some years before Ernest. Perhaps it is, that the informant to Ernest's death, simply made the assumption that he too, was NZ-born ?]
Lu
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lozzab
RootsChat Member
Posts: 189
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Hi Lu and Ian,
Yes - I have been dubious that Ernest was born in NZ. His death certificate says he was born in Wellington BUT his son Jack didn't even know his parents weren't married until a while after his death. (My aunt recently told me that she remembers her father being very angry when he found out his parents had never been married - but she doesn't remember how he found out - she was only about 13 yrs old at the time.) Ernest died in his sleep in 1958 - he was living wiht his son, Jack's family and my mother was still living there at the time. I've asked my mother if she remembers him having an accent (thinking the Scottish accent hangs around for a while!) but she doesn't remember him having an accent at all.
I have tried a Victoria and Nsw search for his birth. The closest is a Ernest Howes Cameron (father William, mother Fanny) in 1870 in Sydney, NSW. I can't find a marriage or death for that Ernest Howes in NSW. Looks like Fanny died in 1876 - aged 36yrs. ? so maybe William re-married as he had two young children.
I have also searched the name "Couldrey" as a first name and a surname both in Nsw and Vic BMD but nothing comes up at all.
Is there any way to check passenger lists coming into NZ from Australia or England/Scotland?
Thanks guys, I appreciate your time,
Loz
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Lucy2
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3287
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi again Loz
That's all helpful information, thanks.
I still think it's worthwhile casting a wider net for Ernest's birth in Australia ... trying the other States, as well.
(I'm a bit undecided about the Ernest Howes CAMERON b. NSW 1870 ... but you never know ... anybody's a possibility at this stage.  )
COULDREY ... there were a few people in NZ with this surname (that's only though looking at those who married here ... the earliest being a "Sarah" in 1886).
Perhaps you could try and find out where this surname comes from ? I still think it's Scottish ... might be helpful to find out in which area it is most prevalent. (Post some queries on other boards ?)
I'm still doing some "digging" for you in NZ - mainly to see if the LEVY's offer any clues.
Passenger lists ... look in the Reources section of this board.
(There's nothing much for trans-Tasman voyages - except out of VIC to NZ ports).
Lu
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Lucy2
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3287
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Suzy 
Great work !
[  Trying my best ... but this one has got me well and truly stumped ! ]
The best chance of finding Ernest's roots, is (I believe), through a connection to the name "COULDREY". I did a bit more searching, seems now this name might be English (rather than Scottish) ? Ernest obviously had some attachment to, or some pride in this name, to have passed it on to his son ?
Lu
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lozzab
RootsChat Member
Posts: 189
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Hi Lu and Suzy,
Yes that is them in Ballantyne st on the Electoral Roll. I found them at Ancestry. I have their death certificates and it appears they went from NZ and settled in Sydney and then Ernest and Adela came to Victoria in about 1923. Their son Jack married Lorna Marion Wheeler in 1929 and they can be found on the NSW Electoral roll in 1930 but then have come to Victoria and are found on the Victorian Electoral Roll in 1931.
I have just received the "Birth" Certicate of Jack Ernest from NZ - not happy !!
It came with a letter saying they are "unable to issue the printout in the original jhandwritten format as legislation has been passed since the time of the record being registered, which prohibits certain information being stated"
The only thing on the printout that I didn't know is that the birth took place at Vogeltown, Melrose. (which explains his twin Iris Daphne Vogel Levy ?)
What information are they witholding from me? I wish they would tell you that they can't give any more information than was on the index BEFORE you go and pay the money for nothing!
Jack's mother was listed as Adela Amelia on her birth. Why would just Amelia appear on her children's birth records? All the records I have found in Australia just list her as 'Adela' whith no mention of the Amelia. She had four children to Ernest Cameron - I assaume that they would have been living together. I feel like Ernest was trying to hide something (his past?)
Aarrggg, this is frustrating!!
Thanks all of you for your help!
Loz
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Rogers, Mason, Hawkes, Baldwin, Taboudeux, Lee, Steeden, Wilson, Armstrong, Battley, Johnstone, Dailey, Birmingham, Lancaster,Field, Rainford, Hill, Adams, Cassidy.
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Lucy2
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3287
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Loz
Yep, I share the ARRRGGGHH !! ... with you !
(Along with the disgust I have for NZ BDM in the way they withhold info from these (historical) records) !
I actually can't believe that they (BMD), have now displayed all these historical records online "giving Mother's name and showing Father as N/R (not recorded)". That is usually a dead giveaway, that these births were "out of wedlock". SO, yes, what are BMD trying to hide ??
NZ BMD certainly need to get their act together ... (1) by offering this meagre info at a reduced cost ... and (2) making it known, that if you apply for a printout such as this ("Father's name N/R"), then you can expect very limited info, as a result !
What information are they witholding from me?
Honestly can't answer that question ... sorry.  [A while ago I applied for a similar-type printout - it came in the format of what BMD call a "white copy" ... i.e. limited information (for the mother and child) transcribed by BMD onto a piece of white computer paper (the variety with the holes punched in it) ! But ... I didn't get the covering letter of explanation - BMD have only recently started doing that.]
Ah ... so Iris Daphne has an additional name (Vogel) ?
Vogeltown and Melrose are actually two different suburbs of Wellington ... and they are quite a distance apart ! (Separated by the suburbs of Island Bay to the South, or Berhampore to the North .... and I always thought that Mornington (suburb) was the earlier name for what is now Vogeltown ?) So that is jolly interesting !
* Was there an actual street address given (for Vogeltown / Melrose) ?
* Is the informant's name given ?
continued .... next post ...
Lu
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lozzab
RootsChat Member
Posts: 189
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Hi Lu,
Yes - this is a "white copy" - it a computer generated page.
States - first names - Jack Ernest Cameron
Surname - Levy
dob - 07/09/1905
Birhplace - Vogeltown Melrose
and then mother - Amelia Levy age 26, born Wellington.
No home address or any other details.
No details at all for father or parents relationship.
First Informant - Description Authorised Agent - E Heide, Vogeltown.
That's it!!! (Interesting that Vogeltown and Melrose are not same place!)
I have got Iris' marriage certificate and it states on that her full name is"Iris Daphne Vogel Cameron". How did they get married/died as 'Cameron" when their birth certificates had the surname LEVY on them???
I sent a letter to Phyllis' daughter last week, asking if she had any info. She rang and left a message on my machine that she was going away for a week and she would ring again when she got back. Also said that she didn't know much. I'm hoping she may have some documents or something that may help!?
My mother said that she never imagined that they had never been married. She knew her grandparents - but in those days people didn't talk about their pasts.
Thansk so much for your help LU
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Rogers, Mason, Hawkes, Baldwin, Taboudeux, Lee, Steeden, Wilson, Armstrong, Battley, Johnstone, Dailey, Birmingham, Lancaster,Field, Rainford, Hill, Adams, Cassidy.
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lozzab
RootsChat Member
Posts: 189
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Lu,
I hadn't even thought to connect that! You are good!!!!! Mmmmm - what the hell was he "heiding"??
So - do you think Cameron was his correct name and poss. just used Heide? I don't know if it is worth my while ordering the other children's birth certificates - if they will only release as little as Jack's?
Loz
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Rogers, Mason, Hawkes, Baldwin, Taboudeux, Lee, Steeden, Wilson, Armstrong, Battley, Johnstone, Dailey, Birmingham, Lancaster,Field, Rainford, Hill, Adams, Cassidy.
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Lucy2
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3287
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Loz
Sorry ... the excitement was getting to me - I didn't answer your previous posts.
I have got Iris' marriage certificate and it states on that her full name is"Iris Daphne Vogel Cameron".
How did they get married/died as 'Cameron" when their birth certificates had the surname LEVY on them???
I think quite probably that if you'd "adopted" a new name / or had proof that that was the name you were commonly known as, then "proof by way of an actual birth cert." was possibly not required. It may be though that a statutory declaration of proof of name/identity, was required ? (But maybe, you didn't have to go to that trouble, at all ?).
Yes, that "Melrose" and "Vogeltown" business is indeed odd.
(I've lived in both those suburbs, so have a handle on where they are.  )
Just a couple of things, if you could check please ?
* Iris's marriage cert. ... is her father Ernest, a witness to that marriage, by chance ?
* Voyage - Wellington to Melbourne, June 1909 "Moana" ... is there a "Mr. HEIDE / HYDE" aboard ?
Lu
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lozzab
RootsChat Member
Posts: 189
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Lu,
No Ernest wasn't a witness on Iris' marriage cert. Her sister Phyllis was.
There was no Mr Hyde/Heide on the Moana.
I'm hoping that Phyllis's daughter will have a copy of Phyllis' birth, marriage and death certificates and they that may have a clue.
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Rogers, Mason, Hawkes, Baldwin, Taboudeux, Lee, Steeden, Wilson, Armstrong, Battley, Johnstone, Dailey, Birmingham, Lancaster,Field, Rainford, Hill, Adams, Cassidy.
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lozzab
RootsChat Member
Posts: 189
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I went to the Springvale Botanical Garden today (Cemtery) Adela and Ernest are under a rose tree and Jack and his wife Lorna are in a wall niche. Adela and Ernest's plaques are very simple with just their name (no middle names) age and date of death. This is the first time I have seen them.
I also asked at Admin if there was any further information known about them. The girl was very nice and took my details saying she would have a look at the original records. She rang me some hours later and said there was nothing further to add.
Adela's parents, Henry and Leah (nee Marks) LEVY, were married in Hokitika (which is on the south Island??) but were buried at Karori Cemetery, which suggests they moved to Wellington at some stage.
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Rogers, Mason, Hawkes, Baldwin, Taboudeux, Lee, Steeden, Wilson, Armstrong, Battley, Johnstone, Dailey, Birmingham, Lancaster,Field, Rainford, Hill, Adams, Cassidy.
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