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Topic: Was she really shot in the head? (Read 1685 times)
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Sandy H
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 29
Grandpa Kindred
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There is a family story about the girl in this drawing. There is no name on the original, so I don't really know who she is. I seem to remember my gran saying that her name was Elizabeth. The story goes that she was accidentally shot in the head with her father's gun by her fiance at the age of 18 yrs. old
I have an Elizabeth Kindred in that family line who was born in 1811 and died in 1829 in Framlingham, Suffolk, Eng. The fact that it is a drawing and not a photo suggests that it might have been made before photography existed, which would make her a good candidate.
Free BMD records only go back to 1837. I understand that Parish Records exist before 1837. I do have family bible records that say that they attended St. Michael's in Framlingham. Does anyone know if parish records are available online? I live in the USA and won't be visiting Suffolk anytime soon. 
Or, if anyone knows how I could find out what newspapers existed at that time and place and if newspaper records would be accessible online.
If she is Elizabeth Kindred and if she was shot in the head, it must have been a sensational story for a small town. Hopefully, there is a record of it.
Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated! 
Sandy H
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Kindred, Lloyd, Suckling, Golding, Ray, Jefferson, Ferguson, Wright, Winter, and Turner.
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Sandy H
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 29
Grandpa Kindred
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Hi Ambly 
Fascinating!! Yes, you do have the right family. I'm amazed at what you found! Thank you so much!
Could be several possibilities.
1. It was winter and Eliza & her sister, Lucy, caught some illness and died a
few days apart.
2. Eliza was accidentally shot in the head and a few days later her baby sister
happened to die, so the parents buried them together. I have 2 sisters who
share a grave. They died 4 yrs apart.
3. 7 months after Lucy's birth seems a bit late for complications following
childbirth. Also, they had a brother born in 1826, so their mother Lucy was
still young enough to have children.
4. Baby Lucy was Eliza's child and her fiance did not want to marry her, so he
"accidentally" shot her! The gun was her father's gun and it was hung above
the fireplace. He, the fiance, reached up to get it down & the gun went off.
5. Eliza is not the person in the drawing who was shot.
I have 2 other potential girls from this family who died young. I thought it might be Eliza Kindred because she was 18 yrs old like the story.
Lucy Ann Kindred b. 17 Nov 1847 d. Oct 2, 1870 Framlingham, SFK.
Elizabeth Harriet Suckling b. 1853 d. Apr/May/Jun 1876 Steeple Bumpstead, SFK
Essex. Registration district Risbridge, Cambridgeshire.
I have not sent away for death certificates for these two, because I thought I would search out Eliza/Elizabeth Kindred first.
Thanks again for helping me!
Sandy H
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Kindred, Lloyd, Suckling, Golding, Ray, Jefferson, Ferguson, Wright, Winter, and Turner.
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AMBLY
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4584
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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Hi Sandy H
An equally facinating story you have to try and prove 
I did notice that the mother was certainley still young enough to be the mother of baby Lucy, and that Lucy wasn't born after a large gap follwoing the previous child - could be any one of the 5
I wonder, even though it's a drawing and not a photograph, if it might be worth placing it on the Photograph & Restoration Board here at Rootschat, and asking if there is anything about the drawing which might be able to date it.... the hair-style (fringe, tied back, flowers), what can be seen of the attire (high lace collar, open neck?), or even if the style of drawing can be narrowed to a period?
Cheers
AMBLY
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suffolkmawther
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1341
'Jumper' & Eliza Fulker
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The Kindred family were rather like the Bridges' in Framlingham - quite a few of them.
Framlingham St Michael and All Angels PRs are available in transcript from SFHS on CD-rom.
Have you seen the church at www.suffolkchurches.co.uk
There were several independent churches in the town too.
I have copies (my own notes) of the PRs from 1560-1900
I found the following amongst the burials for 1829
Eliza Kindred buried 20th January age 17 years
Lucy Kindred buried 20th January age 7 months
Also
'An epitaph found in Framlingham Churchyard'
Mary, wife of Edmund Kindred, 6th September 1801 age 46 years
Dear husband now my life is past
My love to you so long did last
Therefore for me no sorrow make
But love my Children for my sake
This is taken from Lambert's Almanac for 1874
(unfortunately I do not have one for 1829)
The newspaper to search would be
The Framlingham Weekly News*, originals of which are available in the museum for Framlingham, The Lanman Museum which is housed within Framlingham Castle.
However, I am sure my husband has been able to access them on film - possibly at the Ipswich branch of the Suffolk Record Office (will check with him on his return from the office this evening).
When writing about the town he is meticulous with his research before publishing articles or books.
He has just had four articles in the Framlingham and District Historical and Preservation Society Newsletter about the various mills and millers in Framlingham. There are notes on Edmund Kindred 1788-1857 who was a miller in the town, at Victoria Mill. Is he one of your line?
I am in touch with a Kindred researcher from Canada and my husband has always known the Kindred's who farm at Parham, a village next to Fram - so there are still Kindred family in the area.
Pat ...
* I will check the dates of publication with John
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Every time I find an ancestor, I have to find two more !
SUFFOLK - Pendle, Stygall, Pipe, Fruer, Bridges, Fisk, Bellamy, Sparham
DERBY - Bridges and Frost (originally from Framlingham/Parham Suffolk)
NOTTINGHAM - Lambert and Selby
BERKSHIRE/then Hammersmith/Barnes LND - Fulker
LONDON/MDX - Murray, Clancy, Broker, Hoskins, Marsden, Wilson, Sale
Gt-Grandfather Michael Wilson was born in Cork, lived in Fulham London - arrived Boston USA 1889 alone - what happened next?
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Sandy H
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 29
Grandpa Kindred
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Ambly & Pat
I like your idea Ambly, about posting the pic on the photo board to possibly date it.
Thank you Pat for your input about my Kindreds. I have seen the Suffolk Churches website. I wish my mum had a computer. I know that she would really enjoy seeing Framlingham & St.Michael's online. (She lives 1000 m away).
You definitely have the right family. They were millers and owned the Victoria Mill. Edmund or his son, Frederick went bankrupt and lost the mill. A John Kindred (Edmund's oldest son?) went to debtor's prison. My GGran was a genealogist and Grandpa Kindred said they spent a lot of holidays in Framlingham when he was a little boy so she could research. Alas, we only have a few bits of her notes. Some of which refer to the Victoria Mill & the bankruptcy. Frederick was her father-in law. Would it be possible to get copies of your husband's articles that you mention?
How wonderful to know that there may be newspaper records from that time period! Surely she would have made the newspaper, especially if she was shot!
The Kindred researcher in Canada, is that David Kindred? I've seen a few of his postings online.
Also Pat, I think on other postings you mention a David Kindred, a photographer in Ipswich. Do you know if he does genealogy or does he just have old photos of Suffolk? My Great Grandparents Frederick Kindred & Clara Suckling both attended a "drapers" school in Ipswich. Fred eventually became the "Head Master" of the school and when they were first married I believe they had a draper's and gentlemen's outfitter shop in Ipswich ca 1885. I don't know the name of the shop, though.
I am new to Rootschat and I love it!! In just a few days I have received so much help with my Kindred family.
Again, thank you both so much!
Sandy H
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Kindred, Lloyd, Suckling, Golding, Ray, Jefferson, Ferguson, Wright, Winter, and Turner.
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woody32
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1351
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From Google book search..
Kindred, Eliza, daughter of Edmund and Lucy, 14th Jan. 1829, 1?
years ; and Lucy, 18th Jan. 1829, 7 months*
Ere sin could blight or sorrow fade,
Death came with friendly care;
The op'ning buds to heav'n convey'd,
And bade them blossom there.
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LANCASHIRE = Wood,Howard,,Smethurst,Foxall,Cheetham,Brookes,Grime, Horrocks,Thornley,Arstall,Shawcross,Rowland,Mclean LINCOLNSHIRE = Featherstone Johnson,Toyne,Willson,
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suffolkmawther
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1341
'Jumper' & Eliza Fulker
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Hello again,
Yes, I know both Davids 
David Kindred in Ipswich has a vast collection of Suffolk photographs and has produced several books of photographic memories - we have several of them.
David Kindred 'in Cda' is a sort of distant cousin (as far as we can make out from our Bridges/Kindred connections. Certainly Ada nee Kindred Frost has a connection through her late husband Royston to our Fruer Bridges who married Louisa Frost. But there is an Elizabeth Kindred who married a Bridges boy too).
I think that the Framlingham Weekly News began later than 1819.
I will check with John though.
Will ask about sending you the relevant article about the various members of the Kindred family and Victoria Mill in Fram.
Visiting family in Fram on Saturday
~~~~~
Useful URLs
David's web site http://www.kindred-spirit.co.uk/
www.oldpond.com/acatalog/david_kindred.htm photo and narrative
www.poppyland.co.uk for John's last book on Fram
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Logged
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Every time I find an ancestor, I have to find two more !
SUFFOLK - Pendle, Stygall, Pipe, Fruer, Bridges, Fisk, Bellamy, Sparham
DERBY - Bridges and Frost (originally from Framlingham/Parham Suffolk)
NOTTINGHAM - Lambert and Selby
BERKSHIRE/then Hammersmith/Barnes LND - Fulker
LONDON/MDX - Murray, Clancy, Broker, Hoskins, Marsden, Wilson, Sale
Gt-Grandfather Michael Wilson was born in Cork, lived in Fulham London - arrived Boston USA 1889 alone - what happened next?
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suffolkmawther
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1341
'Jumper' & Eliza Fulker
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Hi Woody,
Which book did you find with that reference please?
Just curious, we may well have it, but if we haven't it will have to go on our wish list
Pat ...
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Logged
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Every time I find an ancestor, I have to find two more !
SUFFOLK - Pendle, Stygall, Pipe, Fruer, Bridges, Fisk, Bellamy, Sparham
DERBY - Bridges and Frost (originally from Framlingham/Parham Suffolk)
NOTTINGHAM - Lambert and Selby
BERKSHIRE/then Hammersmith/Barnes LND - Fulker
LONDON/MDX - Murray, Clancy, Broker, Hoskins, Marsden, Wilson, Sale
Gt-Grandfather Michael Wilson was born in Cork, lived in Fulham London - arrived Boston USA 1889 alone - what happened next?
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suffolkmawther
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1341
'Jumper' & Eliza Fulker
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Drapers School?
Could it be Footman Pretty, there has been a recent thread on the apprentices who lived above the store in Ipswich.
Pat ...
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Logged
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Every time I find an ancestor, I have to find two more !
SUFFOLK - Pendle, Stygall, Pipe, Fruer, Bridges, Fisk, Bellamy, Sparham
DERBY - Bridges and Frost (originally from Framlingham/Parham Suffolk)
NOTTINGHAM - Lambert and Selby
BERKSHIRE/then Hammersmith/Barnes LND - Fulker
LONDON/MDX - Murray, Clancy, Broker, Hoskins, Marsden, Wilson, Sale
Gt-Grandfather Michael Wilson was born in Cork, lived in Fulham London - arrived Boston USA 1889 alone - what happened next?
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suffolkmawther
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1341
'Jumper' & Eliza Fulker
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Hello again,
I have looked on Foxearth's web site
http://www.foxearth.org.uk/newspapers.html
and there is nothing there.
Husband suggested looking in Ipswich Journal and the Bury and Norwich Post.
He also confirmed that the Framlingham Weekly News was not printing at that time (1819).
As you have a date it might be worth asking for a look up from the newspapers on film at the SRO in Ipswich. John has used them and they can be a pain if you are trawling through, but with a date should not be so arduous a task.
I have PMd you to sort out sending the mills articles to you, which appeared in four installments of the FDLHPSociety newsletter.
Night Night,
Pat ...
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Logged
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Every time I find an ancestor, I have to find two more !
SUFFOLK - Pendle, Stygall, Pipe, Fruer, Bridges, Fisk, Bellamy, Sparham
DERBY - Bridges and Frost (originally from Framlingham/Parham Suffolk)
NOTTINGHAM - Lambert and Selby
BERKSHIRE/then Hammersmith/Barnes LND - Fulker
LONDON/MDX - Murray, Clancy, Broker, Hoskins, Marsden, Wilson, Sale
Gt-Grandfather Michael Wilson was born in Cork, lived in Fulham London - arrived Boston USA 1889 alone - what happened next?
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suffolkmawther
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1341
'Jumper' & Eliza Fulker
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Hi Woody, found the book, it's Green's Framlingham and yes, we do have a copy
Pat ...
off to bed now 
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Logged
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Every time I find an ancestor, I have to find two more !
SUFFOLK - Pendle, Stygall, Pipe, Fruer, Bridges, Fisk, Bellamy, Sparham
DERBY - Bridges and Frost (originally from Framlingham/Parham Suffolk)
NOTTINGHAM - Lambert and Selby
BERKSHIRE/then Hammersmith/Barnes LND - Fulker
LONDON/MDX - Murray, Clancy, Broker, Hoskins, Marsden, Wilson, Sale
Gt-Grandfather Michael Wilson was born in Cork, lived in Fulham London - arrived Boston USA 1889 alone - what happened next?
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Nick29
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2904
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Hi Ambly Fascinating!! Yes, you do have the right family. I'm amazed at what you found! Thank you so much! Could be several possibilities. 1. It was winter and Eliza & her sister, Lucy, caught some illness and died a few days apart. 2. Eliza was accidentally shot in the head and a few days later her baby sister happened to die, so the parents buried them together. I have 2 sisters who share a grave. They died 4 yrs apart. 3. 7 months after Lucy's birth seems a bit late for complications following childbirth. Also, they had a brother born in 1826, so their mother Lucy was still young enough to have children. 4. Baby Lucy was Eliza's child and her fiance did not want to marry her, so he "accidentally" shot her! The gun was her father's gun and it was hung above the fireplace. He, the fiance, reached up to get it down & the gun went off. 5. Eliza is not the person in the drawing who was shot. I have 2 other potential girls from this family who died young. I thought it might be Eliza Kindred because she was 18 yrs old like the story. Lucy Ann Kindred b. 17 Nov 1847 d. Oct 2, 1870 Framlingham, SFK. Elizabeth Harriet Suckling b. 1853 d. Apr/May/Jun 1876 Steeple Bumpstead, SFK Essex. Registration district Risbridge, Cambridgeshire. I have not sent away for death certificates for these two, because I thought I would search out Eliza/Elizabeth Kindred first. Thanks again for helping me! Sandy H
There is another possibility. Girls who became pregnant were often hidden away as soon it was obvious they were pregnant, and when the baby was born it would be brought up by its grandparents as their child. If the girl died either in childbirth or following complications from it, some excuse would have to be found for the disappearance of the daughter. Being shot in the head is a possible excuse.
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Best Wishes, Nick. Research interests: Field - Luton & Islington Hole - Somerset, Suffolk & Surrey Farnish, Parker, Cattermole, Last, Wasp, Church - Suffolk Lewin/Lowin/Lowen - Hertfordhire Martin - Eltham & Greenwich, Kent (London) Stead - Greenwich, London (Kent) & Maidstone Wood - Hertfordshire Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Sandy H
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 29
Grandpa Kindred
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Hello,
Eliza Kindred died 14 Jan 1829 & was buried on 18 Jan 1829, so good news Pat, it might just be in the Framlingham Weekly News, especially if they published obits. I mean, even if she wasn't shot. I can check the other news papers, if she's not in the Fram Wkly news.
I have also searched Foxearth to no avail. I love that site! Thanks for looking for me.
The book mentioned was a "Google" book. They are digital copies of old books and free to download. I have several. They are a great find, because they are usually written 100+ yrs ago with a lot of good family history info. I see that you discovered that you have an actual hard copy of the book!
After I read your post about Draper's School, I found the thread about the apprentices and enjoyed it very much! I have done a little digging and found the 1871 Census for Frederick Kindred. He was in a draper's school at the age of 18. It was in Woodbridge, SFK. The only address said "Thoroughfare". All the students were listed as "draper's assistants.
The 1881 Census had Frederick and his future wife, Clara Suckling both listed as "draper's assistants", in fact, everyone except the poor domestic and the dog were listed as draper's assistants! Probably about 30 or 40 people. Fred was not the Head Master as I thought. This school was in Ipswich at Suffolk House on Tavern St.. When I looked at David Kindred's photos of Ipswich, I realized that Ipswich looked like a pretty good sized place, even back then. How many draper's schools do you think existed in Ipswich in the late 1800's?
Seems like it must have been all the rage to get away from Mum & Dad and live in a house full of young people! hmmmm.....just learning a trade.
I have a photo somewhere of Suffolk House. I thought it was the home of Fred and Clara! And I wasn't sure if it was in Ipswich or Haverhill. It's not a good photo, but I would say that it was taken in the 1960's, so there is a good chance that it is still there. The 1881 Cen calls it Suffolk House, so I don't think it is the same school as Footman Pretty.
It is late at night here, so I must go to bed!
Pat, enjoy your visit with your family in Framlingham! So odd. I have heard about Framlingham my whole life, I have pictures of the castle, but I have never been there. And now I know someone who is going there this weekend to visit family! How fun! The world is getting smaller!!
Night Night or Good Morning to You All!!
Sandy 
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Kindred, Lloyd, Suckling, Golding, Ray, Jefferson, Ferguson, Wright, Winter, and Turner.
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