|
Pages: 1 [2]
|
 |
|
Author
|
Topic: EPPS & BROWN Torquay (Read 810 times)
|
cheshiremog
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1471
Minnie ~ frightened a mouse right under her chair!
|
Dear Les
The address 3 Dellars Cottages has totally intrigued me but it does prove that Sam Clift did have some kind of contact with his son Reggie Cliff Brown right up until at least 1915. It is a bit of a tangled web I am afraid, the most interesting family trees always are. Sam Clift was born 1873 in Brixham and in 1895 married a lady named Helena Wyatt in Brixham. Sam and Helena had two boys, John William Clift who died as a baby and another son named George Clift. Something went wrong in the marriage, my mother said Helena took her son George and ran off and left Sam. If she did 'run off' she didn't run far as I have since discovered that she stayed in the Torbay area for the rest of her life. George frequently visited Sam an my mother remembered George very well. As there was such a huge age difference my mother and her siblings referred to their step-brother George as 'Uncle George'.
In 1906 Reggie Cliff Brown is born, Sam Clift is the father and is quite proud of the fact obviously as he declares Reggie as a dependant on his WW1 service record. But Sam could not have married Lilian Brown, even if he wanted to, as Sam is already married to Helena. I wonder if Helena and Sam parted because of Reggie? Or if Sam & Helena parted before Sam met Lilian?
In 1911 Sam is lodging with a family at Hillside Terrace, Colley End Paignton - he is not living with Lilian or any other woman for that matter. I wonder if Lilian went off and married someone else because she either didn't want to stay with Sam and/or Sam couldn't marry her anyway? I can not find a death for a Lilian Brown around that time, but there is a marriage for a Lilian Brown in 1907. Do you know what became of Lilian?
In 1911 William Epps & Charlotte are living at 1 Melville Place Torquay and Reggie Cliff Brown is named as their step-son.
Sam's WW1 attestation paper in Dec 1915 says he lives at 3 Dellars Cottages. I think now that 3 Dellars Cottages was probably the marital the home in 1915 of William Epps & Charlotte Epps (nee Brown). When William Epps attests in 1914 he gives his address as 3 Dellers Cottages! Did Sam Clift lodge with William and Charlotte Epps for a time ? If so Sam would also have been lodging with his son Reggie Cliff Brown.
Did your relative remember if Reggie Cliff Brown married or had any children of his own ?
I also find it very odd that Sam Clift may have lodged with William and Charlotte in 1915 as by that time, Sam had met my grandmother Annie Maud Molloy and they had Kathleen born 1914, Morris born 1915 - so how can Sam be living with the Epps in 1915 if he has met another woman and had two children with her? Its all mighty peculiar. Or did William Epps, Charlotte, Sam and Annie Maud all get along very well and maybe the Epps let Sam and Annie lodge with them until they found a place of their own in Paignton?
If you can find out anything from your relative it would be very interesting.
Carol
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Cheshire - TAYLOR, HEAPY, KNOWLES, HAMPSON, CLAYTON, STONIER, PRITCHARD, NADIN, GALLIMORE
Staffs - HEAPY
Devon - CLIFT, VITTERY, TRIST, MOLLOY, COBLEY, LEAR, GUILFOYLE, BICKFORD, EPPS, BEAZLEY, DARKE, LANG, QUANT, BLANKENSHIP
Devon & Cornwall - CLIFT, LARK
Somerset -Frome -HEAPY
Derbys/Notts- COCKAYNE, PHEASEY, KNOWLES
|
|
|
cheshiremog
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1471
Minnie ~ frightened a mouse right under her chair!
|
See extracts below
|
Cheshire - TAYLOR, HEAPY, KNOWLES, HAMPSON, CLAYTON, STONIER, PRITCHARD, NADIN, GALLIMORE
Staffs - HEAPY
Devon - CLIFT, VITTERY, TRIST, MOLLOY, COBLEY, LEAR, GUILFOYLE, BICKFORD, EPPS, BEAZLEY, DARKE, LANG, QUANT, BLANKENSHIP
Devon & Cornwall - CLIFT, LARK
Somerset -Frome -HEAPY
Derbys/Notts- COCKAYNE, PHEASEY, KNOWLES
|
|
|
cheshiremog
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1471
Minnie ~ frightened a mouse right under her chair!
|
Would just like to add
Never knew William Epps was at 3 Dellars Cotts until you asked me to look for his service record last week
When I found it - with some difficulty - I nearly fell off my chair.
I am as surprised as you
Lookimg forward to your reply.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Cheshire - TAYLOR, HEAPY, KNOWLES, HAMPSON, CLAYTON, STONIER, PRITCHARD, NADIN, GALLIMORE
Staffs - HEAPY
Devon - CLIFT, VITTERY, TRIST, MOLLOY, COBLEY, LEAR, GUILFOYLE, BICKFORD, EPPS, BEAZLEY, DARKE, LANG, QUANT, BLANKENSHIP
Devon & Cornwall - CLIFT, LARK
Somerset -Frome -HEAPY
Derbys/Notts- COCKAYNE, PHEASEY, KNOWLES
|
|
|
Les Pitts
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 3
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Dear Carol,
thanks for your time and trouble in looking up the information about William George Epp's Army Service. It certainly looks as if there was a close friendship between him and Samuel. The Deller's Cottages connection might become a little clearer when I have had chance to look at some birth certificates of the Epps children - I have not obtained any as yet but will do so shortly. I am slightly surprised that both men were so ready to go off to war as neither of them was in the first flush of youth and both had by then become parents - but I suppose work may have been difficult to obtain at home, or, as has always been the case for a lot of workers in Torbay, of a seasonal nature. Using the Regimental number you quoted I obtained the Medal Card of W.G. Epps from the National Archives - it was just as well that you found the number because the one I had identified from the index was in fact for a different person with the same name ! As you stated it confirmed that he had been discharged on grounds of ill health less than a year after going to France. I also had a look for the Medal Card of Samuel - and found it indexed under Cliffe rather than Clift. The Regimental numbers tally with those on the documents you showed me though.
I have mobilised my 'agents' in Torquay and enquiries are being made which should result in some feedback from a member of the Brown family so I hope to have some more information for you soon - in the meantime I hope you have a great day on Sunday re-dedicating your Soldier Memorial in Jacksdale,
Best wishes,
Les
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
cheshiremog
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1471
Minnie ~ frightened a mouse right under her chair!
|
Dear Les
Yes it does look like Willam Epps and Samuel Clift remained in touch somehow, for a number of years. I would be very interested to hear where the other Epps children were born as that might shed some light on it.
As for Sam - he actually lied at attestation staing he was only 39 years old, when in fact he was 42 years. As he was a coachman, we wonder whether the horses used were requisitioned for the war effort, so Sam may have effectively lost his livliehood and therefore had no option but to sign up. So I think there is some truth in what you say about there being a lack of jobs - also a lot of public pressure for men to join up.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Yes Soldier Day went tremendously well, with a crowd of 3000 to 4000 - not a bad turn out for such a small village.
best wishes
Carol
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Cheshire - TAYLOR, HEAPY, KNOWLES, HAMPSON, CLAYTON, STONIER, PRITCHARD, NADIN, GALLIMORE
Staffs - HEAPY
Devon - CLIFT, VITTERY, TRIST, MOLLOY, COBLEY, LEAR, GUILFOYLE, BICKFORD, EPPS, BEAZLEY, DARKE, LANG, QUANT, BLANKENSHIP
Devon & Cornwall - CLIFT, LARK
Somerset -Frome -HEAPY
Derbys/Notts- COCKAYNE, PHEASEY, KNOWLES
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2]
|
|
|
|
|
CliftSEVAddress.jpg