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Author
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Topic: Coopers from Shere (Read 924 times)
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Jake Drummond
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 37
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I've got Coopers from Shere in my family tree. Ethel Cooper was born around 1874/77 to Thomas Cooper and Eliza Rose Ladd, and married my grandfather John Bain Gardner after my grandmother died in 1920. Ethel brought my mother up as her own and I'd love to trace any of her relatives and find her grave which we hope to visit in August when we travel down from Scotland. We think she may have died in the 1950's sometime.
Ethel had a few sisters and brothers so I suspect there will be grandchildren of those families now researching her history.
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Gardner, Ritchie, Adamson, Drummond, Dunigan, Kilday, Ireland, Horsburgh, Dick....and others.
Mostly all Fife in the 1900's, but obviously some Irish connections!
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9414
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I expect you have seen 1881 census?
RG11 775 60 9
Peaslake Shere
Thomas 38 Ag Lab
Rose 34
Alice 14
Mary 12
Nelly 10
Harold 8
Ethel 6
Lily 4
Harry 1 all bn Shere
What else have you got already so we dont duplicate searching?
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9414
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Birth
Oct/Nov/Dec 1874
Guildford
2a 58
Ethel Cooper
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9414
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1891
More siblings - but Ethel is not at home now
RG12 558 103 22
Peaslake Shere
Thomas 49 Gen Labourer bn Cranleigh
Eliza 42
Alice 24 housemaid
Lilian 14
Harry 11
Norman 7
Arthur 5
Evelyn 2
all bn Shere
Ethel has gone into service at a local 'big' house:
RG12 558 86 24
Hound House, Shere
home of Herbert Edlemann, a Merchant and broker, along with sevaral of his relations and a full quota of servants including:
Ethel Cooper 16 scullery maid bn Shere
If you google Hound House there are lots of hits for Hound House Lane in Shere, but I havent quickly spotted anything about the House. But worth a trip down Hound House lane for a look when you make your visit down south, to see where Ethel worked as a young scullery maid.
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Jake Drummond
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 37
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Wow! A quick reply there!!!!!!!!!
I have been trying to follow Ethel's line via census returns, not having time yet to follow every other sibling, and have Ethel in the 1891 census at Hound House as a scullery maid although her age is given as 14 rather than the 16 or more we suspect, sister Lilian (of whom later) still at home with the family at Firs Cottage, Peaslake.
By the 1901 census Ethel is a parlour maid domestic at Chalgrove House, now given as aged 26.
Her next certificate shows her marriage to my grandad in Edinbugh, at St. Giles in 1921.
They lived and died in the area, without any of my immediate surviving family having
met them, though my eldest sister recalls meeting Ethel, by then widowed, around 1943. Siter Jean was just 5 years old then.
Harold; 1891 Census gives Harold as a Lodger in Bramley, employed as a Gardener's Labourer, Domestic, living in the home of Edward Broad, Gardener.
The 1891 Census gives Harold as a Lodger in Bramley, employed as a Gardener's Labourer, Domestic, living in the home of Edward Broad, Gardener
The 1901 Census then has Harold as a Footman in the employ of Sir Massey Lopes at Manistow House, 3 miles from TAMERTON FOLIOTT, Devon, aged 26 and born Surrey.
Lilian's birth was registered in March 1877 in Guildford.
There is a death of a Lilian Cooper in Guildford in March quarter of 1898 age 24. This ties in with Lilian's birth date and would account for the fact that I couldn't find her on the 1901 census.
There is a death listed for Apr-Jun quarter 1956 of a Lilian Gardner aged 79, reference Ealing 5e 126, which ties in with the details on a John and Lilian Gardner's gravestone in Putney Vale, but I can't see why the name is given as Lilian, though another kind contact has suggested that a mix up by the death informant could account for this, and I can see that being possible.
The 1901 Census has a Harry Cooper, single, 21, as a builder’s labourer, worker, born Surrey, Shere.
The 1901 census has Norman Cooper, single, 16, groom, worker, born Surrey, Shere and it is possible that he died in 1928 aged 44.
Again, the 1901 census has an Arthur Cooper, single, 15, cow boy, born Surrey, Shere.
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Gardner, Ritchie, Adamson, Drummond, Dunigan, Kilday, Ireland, Horsburgh, Dick....and others.
Mostly all Fife in the 1900's, but obviously some Irish connections!
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9414
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I better stop and take stock, as you have lots of them!
I read Ethel in 1891 as a clear age 16!
Who Havent we got (at least up to 1901 - looks like you will need a session on 1911 to see if soem of them married or not)
Here's my little summary from what you have said-
Alice - 14 in 1881, 24 still at home 1891 (Not found 1901)
Mary - 12 in 1881 (not found 1891 or 1901)
Nelly - 10 in 1881 (not found 1891 0r 1901)
Harold - 8 in 1881, 18 in 1891, 28 1901 still single
Ethel - traced
Lilian - 4 in 1881, 14 still at home 1891 died 1898
Harry - 1 in 1881, 11 still at home 1891, 21 1901 still single
Norman - 7 in 1891, 18 1901 stll single, may die 1928
Arthur - 5 in 1891, 15 in 1901
Evelyn - 2 in 1891 (not found 1901)
Have tou got th edeath cert for the Norman in 1928 to see if it was registered by a widow or not?
Off to see if I can get anything in 1901 for Alice, Mary, Nelly, Evelyn (and 1891 for MAry and Nelly first)
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Jake Drummond
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 37
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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No, I've no death certificate for Norman in 1928, the information was just shown in the register of deaths.
I have a late photo of Ethel, when she was in hospital or perhaps a nursing home, and I got this from a cousin who met her "away back", but as she was a wee girl at the time she remembers little about the location or date.
Ethel could have had a sister Dolly who may have had a boy called either Cliff or Atholl, possibly outwith marriage. This also from my cousin Janet Gardner. My sister remembers a boy being here in Scotland with Ethel during 1943 when my mum was very ill, and when I mentioned the name Atholl sister Jean said that rang a bell.
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Gardner, Ritchie, Adamson, Drummond, Dunigan, Kilday, Ireland, Horsburgh, Dick....and others.
Mostly all Fife in the 1900's, but obviously some Irish connections!
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9414
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I think Nelly was probably actually Ellen
(NO birth for Nelly/Nellie.
Birth Jan/Feb/Mar 1871 Ellen Cooper, Guildford)
1891
Sherbourne, Dorset
RG12 1658 101 33
Household of William Campbell, retired Major
Ellen Cooper 19 housemaid bn Surrey Peaslake
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9414
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MAry proving harder in 1891
There are two married Marys of the right age, bith born Shere. One Mary Caroline married to an Alfred Cheeseman, and the other MAry married to William Parker.
But havent spotted a Mary Cooper marriage to either to confirm if either may be her!
Will keep working on that one.... but after lunch!
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9414
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1901 - Harry, Norman, Arthur and Eva are still at home
RG13 601 102 22
Peaslake Shere
Thomas 59 Farm labourer
Rose 53
Harry 21
Norman 16
Arthur 15
Eva 12
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9414
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Looks like Dad Thomas died in 1919
Jan/Feb/Mar 1919
Thomas Cooper
age 77
Guildford 2a 193
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9414
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Thought I was on to something with this birth:
Oct/Nov/Dec 1892
Athol Scott Cooper
Barnet
but he is on 1901 at RG13 1235 10 12, with parents Charles and Mary and LOTS of siblings - none of which seem to have any obvious link with Shere.
But then, for the Athol that your sister remembers to have been a 'boy' in 1943, he would not have been born till 1925- 1940 approx.
Looking at indexes for that range (the full one that is now on Anc) there are numerous Athols born, but I see just one in Guildford reg distr:
Athole A Stobart Jan/Feb/Mar 1915
who knows?
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9414
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Likely marriage for little Evelyn
Jul/Aug/Sep 1915
Guildford 2a 301
to Thomas Coombes
(there is another possible on FreeBMD, but thatEvelyn has a middle initial M. Marries Mr Walker in 1922)
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Jake Drummond
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 37
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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You're doing some good work there, and are obviously much better at it than I am!
I'll log all of the information in my GR tree so that I can keep track of the Cooper siblings of Ethel, as I'm sure all of your research will lead me nearer to finding her.
The chronology of the Cooper and Gardner intertwining is thus;
In 1921 Ethel was married to John Bain Gardner in Edinburgh and strangely gave her usual residence as 23 The Square, Penicuik, the home as it turns out, of a James Bain, who could have been JBG's uncle, though there's no record of him having one such named. John's mum was Agnes Bain.
They married after my grandmother died in childbirth, and Ethel took my 5 year old mum under her care in Peaslake or thereabouts and raised her as her own.
This according to family stories from late mum is how things progressed;
Ethel had been in service and later had nursing training, which we assume was for the war effort, and had helped nurse my grandad back to health after one of his spells or recuperation from his injuries in France during WW1, in a house given over for the purpose for the duration of the war. Where this was is unclear, but Ethel's last workplace and residence we have records of would be Hound House.. (Oh to have paid more attention when I was wee!!)
Upon demobilisation John Gardner was offered work by the house owner but returned home to Scotland and his wife and family, but his wife Jane Dick died in early 1920 during childbirth as did the unfortunate child, and that and the fact that his injuries made work in the mines very difficult, prompted him to take up the offer and he met up again with Ethel by letter (probably to arrange his job), married her a year later and moved with my mum, who was then 5 years old and the bairn of the family, to Surrey.
The bare facts of this point to John and Ethel forming a close relationship while he was recuperating I'd guess, and her Penicuik address might have been a convenient place for her to stay prior to her marriage in nearby Edinburgh.
Mum's siblings stayed here in Scotland as they were older and all had their futures here.
My mum lived and worked with Ethel and her dad in the area around Peaslake, though she often mentioned walking on the common at Wimbledon, Epsom, and visiting Brighton and Hove with her employers who may have had a house there, and stayed south of the border until she was a teenager, though she returned home to Scotland for holidays with the family travelling from Leith by ship to sail into the Thames. She moved back up here, aged we think around 16, meeting my dad and eventually marrying and staying here.
We have no recall of her travelling down to England during the war years when we think John Gardner may have died, and my sister and brother cannot ever remember her being away from home then, or in the 'fifties when Ethel could have died, so it may be that Ethel's visit up here in Scotland when my mum was ill after losing twins in childbirth coincided with John Gardner's death. She loved Ethel dearly, and it seems inconceivable that she would have missed the funeral, but was she informed?...............
We know that my uncle, mum's brother, and his wife kept contact with Ethel, hence a cousin having memories of Ethel and the photographs.
Another part of the mystery is this;
I traced a photograph of a grave in Putney Vale Cemetery and the image was kindly sent by charles.sale at gravesphotos.com and this shows the following;
"John Gardner, died 9th Sept. 1943 aged 63 and Lilian Gardner, died 1st April 1956, aged 79"
Had my mum known of or seen the gravestone she would surely have pointed out the error (assuming we're looking at the correct gravestone), and surely whoever paid for the headstone would have noticed?
So, surely, would her remaining family...............
There's no memory of any story that JBG married any Lilian, but we have Ethel and Lilian as sisters, listed on the same census under different names and living where they did, which seems correct for each of them.
There is another Cooper family living in Shere, cousins all in the likely event, and I think I've managed to separate which lot is which so I don't think I have any errors, and as you see there are ample pointers to say which Cooper is which.
If only the English death records gave parents names I could pinpoint John Gardner, Ethel and Lilian's parents, which would prove or disprove the error, or not, on the gravestone. Of course, this grave could be of another unrelated John Gardner............
I've been pondering all this for some time now, hence my post here looking for help, advice or suggestions, and as I'm getting older I feel it's time to sort it all out before its too late and get down there and pay my respects to the people who so shaped the pattern of my mum's life, and mine.
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Logged
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Gardner, Ritchie, Adamson, Drummond, Dunigan, Kilday, Ireland, Horsburgh, Dick....and others.
Mostly all Fife in the 1900's, but obviously some Irish connections!
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