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Author
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Topic: Coopers from Shere (Read 929 times)
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Jamaine
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 505
Digging up the dead and annoying the living...
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Just to be pedantic, Shere is in Surrey not Sussex... 
John
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Jake Drummond
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 37
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I posted in "England - General" actually as my search, though Shere based, was intended to encompass all the southern counties as that seems to be where the Coopers might have strayed to. Maybe the Moderator allocated it to Sussex, but I failed to notice that.
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Gardner, Ritchie, Adamson, Drummond, Dunigan, Kilday, Ireland, Horsburgh, Dick....and others.
Mostly all Fife in the 1900's, but obviously some Irish connections!
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9415
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What a lovely family tale, jake. I hope you write it all down so the story is preserved for future generations.
I do wonder about that Putney Vake grave - there is absolutely no evidence at the moment that it is John Bain Gardner and either a second wife or a mis-named wife. In fact, the fact that the wifes name does not link with other knowledge of him indicates it is not him at all.
The death index ref for that death is:
Jul/Aug/Sep 1943
Brentford 6a 232
John Gardner age 63
whether the death cert will show enough to prove/disprove whether he is yours or not, i dont know. Maybe an occupation or something might help. Probably registered by widow - Lillian.
Another way to rule in/out this guy would be to look for a will and see what that says.
But it does seem, on ths face of it, doubtful that this is him. unless the person who found it had some other info which led them to it.
Have you actually been through the full death indexes, quarter by quarter, looking for John BAin Gardner's death? A long job, i know, with no actual idea of when he died, but possible with patience.
have you any clues that John and Ethel left the Shere area? Or is it most likely they died there i.e Guildford reg district?
Sorry, lots of questions!
I am not much help on this, but trying to do anything I can to find out anything that I can - or to suggest avenues you might try and pursue..
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Jake Drummond
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 37
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Another line of inquiry brings up the idea that John Gardner is buried in Leatherhead Cemetery, but this is from another cousin who is older than me but never met either JBG or Ethel.
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Gardner, Ritchie, Adamson, Drummond, Dunigan, Kilday, Ireland, Horsburgh, Dick....and others.
Mostly all Fife in the 1900's, but obviously some Irish connections!
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Jake Drummond
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 37
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Now that I've more time to read your last post Liz I have to agree that the Putney Vale grave is probably not the right one, maybe I was just clutching at straws. The fact that there's a Lilian inscribed there sidetracked me into looking at possibilities outwith reasonable thought!
Wills; I know there's a way to search for wills up here in public records, is there any way of doing so with English records?
Death Indexes have only recently been 'discovered' by me actually, so searching them will be the way to go I guess.
A friend suggests searching for John's war pension records to find where he may have lived, but that's another 'new avenue' for me to travel.
I'm accustomed to searching the Scottish records as all of our roots, my wife's and mine, are either Scots or Irish, John and Ethel being my only close English connections, hence my not having much knowledge of the English system.
John and Ethel died where they lived as far as we can tell, my older cousin being the only contact still alive who remembers anything about them, and she reckoned they had lived ''there'' all of their later years. ''There'' being Peaslake or nearby probably, but it was she who thought "somewhere near Leatherhead" was John's place of rest. Cousin Janet is getting on in years and her memory is not what it was.
I visited the Frith photos of Peaslake; mum would have known all of the scenes I bet.
More clues are thus; John may have been involved with a golf course, whether through work or recreation but I suspect the former, and probably had something to do with horses.
Mum said he kept a leather bound ledger with all the runners and riders at the local racecourses, but never spent money betting, and was very knowledgable about the turf scene. We think his interest would have stemmed from his WW1 service, where he was with the Royal Garrison Artillery in France.
In a wartime photograph we see him wearing a badge of the Temperance League, encouraged to prevent the troops falling into the clutches of the demon drink. Pity my other grandad (Drummond) failed to join the Happy Band! My great grandad Drummond actually lied about his age to re-enlist for war service too, taking ten years off his real age of 45 to get in, and his war service record is colourful reading too.
My mother seldom spoke of her youth, or of her father really. It was Ethel who she adored, and when mum spoke of her times with Ethel (never calling her mother though) there was real affection in her voice and I think they were friends as much as anything, and Ethel taught my mum all the tricks of the domestic service trade, hence the super apple pies we enjoyed as bairns.
Thanks for your interest and assistance Liz, I do appreciate it.
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Gardner, Ritchie, Adamson, Drummond, Dunigan, Kilday, Ireland, Horsburgh, Dick....and others.
Mostly all Fife in the 1900's, but obviously some Irish connections!
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9415
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It looks like it will be best to go through death indexes, probably trying to find John first as his middle name/initial will help. but also looking out for Ethel.
This will mean going through quarter by quarter within each year. Indexes are available on pay to view and subscription sites or at local libraries sometimes.
I am happy to 'do' a few years, but first we need to narrow down as far as we can when John and Ethel died.
(Also, Ethel was born 1875, but do we have a year of birth for John Bain?)
The cousin talks about them being in Shere area all their later lives - so when are we meaning? Were they in their 60's/70's/80's - i.e the 1930's/40's/50's? You imply it is known that they survived the war, so must have lived till 1945 and age 70 at least.
So maybe not so many years to go through.
I will see what I can see.
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9415
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OK
I have been through full death indexes for you from 1945-55 incl.
I have only looked under surname Gardner (not any other spellings eg Gardiner, Gardener etc)
During those years I cant find any Ethel of right sort of age dying in Surrey (she will be 70 in 1945 -80 in 1955 ish).
The only John B's I can see are listed here (annoyingly there are only initials not full middle names!:
Oct/Nov/Dec 1945 age 68 Surrey Mid E. ref 2a 410
Jan/Feb/MAr 1949 age 72 Wandsworth ref 5d 1027
Oct/Nov/Dec 1949 age 77 Greenwich ref 5c 598
so Ethel must either:
a) have died before 1945
b) died after 1955
c) be registered or indexed under a slightly different spelling
d) have died in a completely different area (I would have noted any vaguely in Surrey ish area)
Anyone else fancy doing a few years pre 1945 or post 1955?
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Jake Drummond
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 37
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I've been going through the death index too, (on Ancestry, which is I assume wher I should be looking? I have 'pay to view' with them.) but found nothing to suggest a link to Ethel or Lilian Gardner or John Bain Gardner.
Either of the two you mention might be the one I seek;
Oct/Nov/Dec 1945 age 68 Surrey Mid E. ref 2a 410
Jan/Feb/MAr 1949 age 72 Wandsworth ref 5d 1027
the 1945 one being the right location, so I'll check how I order a certificate from the Archives and get that one first, though neither really tie in with the year of birth we seek. John Bain Gardner was born in 1881 in Dysart Parish, Fife, Scotland.
Is there mention of a place of death registration, or burial, for the first record?
Ethel was alive post war, as that's when cousin Janet visited, and I have a photo of her taken of Ethel when she was either in hospital or a nursing home, and I'd guess she would be in her late seventies or early eighties, so 1955 'ish? If you can tell me where to go to find the most accurate check I'll search the index for post '55.
I don't think my cousin Janet met John so maybe he was gone by then, and again that points to him dying pre to '45, but as there's no firm evidence that he died during the second war period I may be wrong in looking quite so late in the century, going on what various family members have only guessed perhaps.
I'm starting to think that listening to the snippets from cousins might be less productive than I first thought, as cousin Janet cannot recall what years she visited, or put a name to exactly where she went, save that Shere and Leatherhead and Guilford seem to be what she recalls best.
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Gardner, Ritchie, Adamson, Drummond, Dunigan, Kilday, Ireland, Horsburgh, Dick....and others.
Mostly all Fife in the 1900's, but obviously some Irish connections!
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carol8353
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5820
My two gorgeous grandsons
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If you're going to order a cert do it through the GRO.
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
It won't cost you anymore than £7.
If you go the Ancestry route I believe it's about £20 
Make sure you tick the box on the first page that asks " is the GRO ref known",then all you have to fill in on page 3 are the boxes with red stars by the side.
Carol
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukRogers, Rapkin, Phillips - Hammersmith/Fulham/Paddington areas Worth Bailey, Heapy, Burgess. All Macclesfield Cheshire Mockridge,West Monkton Somerset Jenner,Clapham Surrey Kendrick,Liverpool Wensley,Somerset Coleman and Mc Namara from Ennis, Co Clare, Ireland Blake and Maloney from Kilbaha Co Clare, Ireland |
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9415
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Just looked through 1956 and I SOOOOO like the look of this one-
Jan/Feb/Mar 1956
Ethel Gardner age 81
Surrey SW
ref 5g 1297
that might be worth sending for the cert
(Carol has given you the hints about getting certs!)
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Jake Drummond
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 37
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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You're an angel Liz, many, many thanks!
That's the most promising one I've seen, and I'm sure that's the one. I'll order the certificate tonight online if I can.
When I get back home I'll post the photo I have of Ethel, maybe someone will recognise the background.
The way my (your) luck is going..........................!
You've made my day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Gardner, Ritchie, Adamson, Drummond, Dunigan, Kilday, Ireland, Horsburgh, Dick....and others.
Mostly all Fife in the 1900's, but obviously some Irish connections!
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9415
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dont get too excited - it might not be her.
And if John B has predeceased her and not around to register the death, then it may be hard to tell from the death cert if it is her or not, unless a rellie you recognise has registered it.
But we will see - do let us know what the death cert says, lets hope it has some little clue that confirms one way or the other if it is her or not.
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Jake Drummond
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 37
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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If the certificate is like the Scottish ones there will be an informant of the death, and some indication of relationship, so there's a line of research there. Also it may give me some idea of an address, a starting point for the final lap I hope!
I'll try posting this photo of "Ethel, in the garden" which is the written title on the back. It appears to show her in advanced years, and this is one of two taken "not long before she died" according to cousin Janet.
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Gardner, Ritchie, Adamson, Drummond, Dunigan, Kilday, Ireland, Horsburgh, Dick....and others.
Mostly all Fife in the 1900's, but obviously some Irish connections!
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Ethel_in_Garden.jpg