Author Topic: BURGOYNE Family of Plymouth (Ancestors of Cleopatra Cecilia Burgoyne, b. 1844)  (Read 32729 times)

Offline Rol

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I would be most grateful for any information that readers of the Devon boards can provide about this family.

First,  I should mention a thread with a similar subject-line that has been running (until today) on the Northumberland Lookup Requests board.  Although the family concerned seems to have moved about a good deal,  that board was originally selected because Cleopatra Cecilia Burgoyne, the individual named in this and the Northumberland topic headings,  was apparently born in that county -- per an entry in FreeBMD,  which matched her unusual name exactly and showed the RD as Tynemouth and the reference as vol. 25,  p. 453.  However,  no Northumberland board reader proved able to spot any clear Tyneside references to her (other than the FreeBMD birth index ref. itself) or to her parents,  so I recently went ahead and made an application to the GRO for a full certificate of the underlying register entry . . .

The cert. has just arrived -- and it turns out that the relevant FreeBMD volunteer had thoroughly mistranscribed the name of the RD (fortunately the vol. and p. were correct and Southport did not reject the application).  The true place was Plymouth,  not Tynemouth!  I have of course submitted a correction to FreeBMD;  but to make further progress I now obviously need to bring my enquiry to the attention of the genealogical experts of Devon . . .

Ideally,  to get the proper back-story,  readers of this first Devon post will click here to be taken to the beginning of the Northumberland thread.  That topic is now locked,  and at the end carries a forwarding link to this new topic. But here is the key Plymouth information provided by the newly received GRO birth certificate.

Cleopatra Cecilia Burgoyne (Cleo) was born on 11 January 1844  and her father was John Burgoyne of Raleigh Street in the parish and sub-registration district of St Andrew,  Plymouth,  a builder (who later went on to style himself a civil engineer);  her mother was Susan Smith Burgoyne (née Giles).  Per the GRO indexes,  in Q1 1840 there was a marriage in Plymouth RD between a John Burgoyne and a Susan Smith Giles (vol. 9,  p.445) -- and an application has just been sent to Southport for that certificate.

The evidence set out on the Northumberland board shows that the family was at Newbridge Co. Kildare by 1852,  where a daughter was born (Reply 23),  and travelled from the Bahamas to Baltimore in 1853 (Replies 2 and 5).  By the 1860s they were back in Ireland,  living at Dundalk (Replies 6, 30, 31, 33 and 35).  Replies 2 and 5 hint that by 1853 John Burgoyne was a widower;  it is not yet known where or when he died himself.

Cleo's later career is discussed at length in the Northumberland thread:  from her marital troubles it is known that she was alive in 1877 (Replies 10 and 12),  but not what subsequently became of her.  Her sister Maria Theresa (the one born ca. 1852 at Newbridge Co. Kildare) married Philip -- later apparently known as John -- Bishop in Lewisham during Q2 1876,  moved to Paddington,  Hackney and Walthamstow,  and had three daughters,  who were all married with children of their own by the time of the 1911 census (Replies 22-25).

Cleo and her sister had one other identifiable sibling (currently only known from UK-based evidence thanks to Reply 5),  who was called John Thomas Burgoyne.  Through internet-searching with the information in Cleo's birth certificate,  I have just found some posts on the Anc***ry.com message board dedicated to the surname Burgoyne,  which go far towards revealing his later life:  he qualified as a doctor in Dublin and emigrated to Australia,  leaving numerous descendants (with whom I am now tentatively initiating contact) -- click here to read para 3 of the key message (as gatewayed to Rootsweb) and here for the full story.

So,  with that wordy background,  on to the Burgoynes' Devon origins . . . and over to you experts!


Rol
(Crown and other relevant copyrights acknowledged, including - but without limitation to - census information from wwwnationalarchives.gov.uk)

Offline fizzybubble

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Re: BURGOYNE Family of Plymouth (Ancestors of Cleopatra Cecilia Burgoyne, b. 1844)
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 29 April 09 22:05 BST (UK) »
Plymouth Charles :

Susan Smith Giles 15.11.1818  Thomas and Elizabeth   father : whitesmith


Fizzy
Cornwall - Mutton Brown Trevethan Mugford Higham
Yorkshire - Thirlwall

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Offline fizzybubble

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Re: BURGOYNE Family of Plymouth (Ancestors of Cleopatra Cecilia Burgoyne, b. 1844)
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 29 April 09 22:19 BST (UK) »
Plymouth St Andrew :
15.11.1812

Thomas Giles and Elizabeth Prouse married

Plymouth St Charles :
Children bap to Thomas and Elizabeth Giles :

19.09.1813 - Elizabeth Prouse       mason                    Hows Lane
24.12.1815 - Thomas                     whitesmith             Richmond Street
09.09.1821 - Sally                          whitesmith             Frankfort
15.11.1818 - Susan Smith              whitesmith             Frankfort Place

Fizzy
Cornwall - Mutton Brown Trevethan Mugford Higham
Yorkshire - Thirlwall

Offline hepburn

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Re: BURGOYNE Family of Plymouth (Ancestors of Cleopatra Cecilia Burgoyne, b. 1844)
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 29 April 09 23:48 BST (UK) »
Hurray it's coming together..
stoke on trent. carson,wain,leese,shaw,key,scalley,mitchell,<br />james,<br /> nottingham,pollard,grice,<br />derbyshire,vallands,turton,howe.<br /> new zealand,turton<br /> canada,carson.<br />australia,mitchell,scalley,<br />

Has anyone seen Henry Atcherson Carson,born Canada 1844?

Offline Rol

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Re: BURGOYNE Family of Plymouth (Ancestors of Cleopatra Cecilia Burgoyne, b. 1844)
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 30 April 09 01:31 BST (UK) »

Yes,  many thanks for that info,  Fizzy -- and good to find Cleo's loyal Northumbrian fan club staying in the hunt!

I wonder where Susan's middle name "Smith" originated?  Evidently not the usual mother's-maiden-name source.  Surely her father couldn't have used her christening to celebrate his change of job -- could he?  So perhaps a nod to a godparent.

Now what about those Burgoynes . . .


Rol
(Crown and other relevant copyrights acknowledged, including - but without limitation to - census information from wwwnationalarchives.gov.uk)

Offline fizzybubble

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Re: BURGOYNE Family of Plymouth (Ancestors of Cleopatra Cecilia Burgoyne, b. 1844)
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 30 April 09 09:15 BST (UK) »
There are possibilities for John Burgoyne, some of which mention Raleigh Street BUT I would rather wait on that one until you have the marriage certificate and Johns fathers name.......


However I suspect that he will be the son of William Burgoyne and Dorothy Maddick who wed in Kingsbridge in 1807 and had John bap at Plymouth Charles in 1817.

If you look at the census for 1841 Plymouth St Andrew, you can see a huge part of the Burgoyne family living as builders etc in Raleigh Street. John of course is there with Susan.



Fizzy
Cornwall - Mutton Brown Trevethan Mugford Higham
Yorkshire - Thirlwall

Offline Rol

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Re: BURGOYNE Family of Plymouth (Ancestors of Cleopatra Cecilia Burgoyne, b. 1844)
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 30 April 09 20:44 BST (UK) »

Much appreciate those early indications about John Burgoyne's possible parentage.  It will indeed be easier to advance with confidence once his marriage certificate arrives (and I shall post the key details here as soon as available).

In the meanwhile,  I need scarcely add,  any clues from readers who have come across other potentially relevant data will remain most welcome.

No responses have come in yet from any of the 2008 contributors to that Burgoyne message board.


Rol
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Offline Rol

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JOHN BURGOYNE'S DEATH + WILL

A very helpful member of staff at PRONI has e-mailed me an extract from the old Dublin PPR probate calendar,  which advances matters usefully:

Quote
BURGOYNE John           2 March  [1874]         Letters of Administration (with the Will annexed) of the personal estate of John Burgoyne late of Magdala Villa Belvidere County Kent England C.E. deceased who died 13 June 1873 at same place were granted at the Principal Registry to Maria Teresa Burgoyne of 21 Saint George’s-road London County Middlesex Spinster Daughter of deceased the Residuary Legatee.                                                                                   Effects under £1,500


I had discovered via the UHF site that there was one single Burgoyne entry in the 1858-78 consolidated Irish calendar,  and I wanted to check whether it concerned Cleo's father or not before making plans for a (seemingly less promising) search at the PPR in London.  In the event,  given that he had moved back to England,  there should almost certainly be a parallel English admon grant with will annexed:  so an expedition to High Holborn ought to prove fruitful -- and avoid the need to send off to PRONI for the Irish edition.  (Presumably "C.E." was a recognised marker for a civil engineer,  rather than a very obscure Victorian gong?)  The implication of the form of the grant may well be that the testator failed to appoint a valid -- or any -- executor.

The date of death in the calendar entry sent me straight to FreeBMD,  and sure enough there is a GRO death for a John Burgoyne in the right RD -- Dartford -- in Q3 1873 (not unreasonable as only 17 days' delay were needed to push the registration quarter back from Q2 to Q3);  and the age-at-death was recorded as 54 -- the first chance to attach an age to him,  given that he seems to have missed all the English censuses except the imprecise 1841.  This would match a birth between June 1818 and June 1819:  not quite an exact fit with Fizzy's 1817 Plymouth Charles baptism (Reply 5 above),  but certainly "within shouting distance".  (Belvedere is apparently in the parish of Erith -- I wonder if his MI has been transcribed?)

Anyway,  one way and another life was pretty difficult for Cleo round about 1873-74 . . .


GRANT'S PUBLIC FAMILY TREE

I was also able to visit the local library for a short while on 1 May (unusual for me),  and used the opportunity to gain fuller access (via the Anc***rylibrary.proquest scheme) to the "public family tree" placed online at Anc***ry.com by Grant -- the man who posted extensively last year as "grant_4" on the Burgoyne message board.

Unfortunately the library's printer was not working and I only had time to make brief handwritten notes;  but it was very clear that Grant was satisfied that Cleo's father John Burgoyne was indeed the son of William Burgoyne and Dorothy Maddick -- just as hypothesised by Fizzy -- and that the baptism at Plymouth Charles on 23 December 1817 was the right one.  John is shown as having two siblings,  another William (1811- . . . .) and Sarah Hardy (1814-1815).

For those Burgoyne-watchers who have an Anc***ry sub. and so can gain easy access to it,  Grant's public tree is well worth a look:  I just wish that it had also been made truly open to all via the allied Rootsweb WorldConnect format.  Like her father as a young man,  Cleo's grandfather William Burgoyne is described as living in Raleigh Street,  Plymouth,  and earning his living as a builder (1841 and 1851 censuses).  He is said to have been born at Kingsbridge,  Devon,  in 1783,  and to have married Dorothy Maddick there on 11 August 1807.  He is shown as buried at Ford Park Cemetery,  Plymouth,  on 30 March 1854,  aged 71 years.  (Any MI?)  His siblings are listed as Sarah b.1780,  Mary Bellamy 1785,  Martha Randall 1788,  Susanna Randall 1795,  Ann 1795 and finally Andrew Randall 1798 (d.1861).

A quick examination suggests that Grant has sourced his work pretty securely.  He carries the male line back three generations further -- through two more William Burgoynes (1749-1829 and 1720- . . . . ) to a John Burgoyne,  born in 1680.

However,  unless in my haste I missed it,  or he has omitted to keep his public tree up to date with his underlying research,  Grant does not yet seem to have uncovered the will and date of death of John Burgoyne the civil engineer,  nor the existence and careers of the two sisters of his direct ancestor John Thomas -- who together,  of course,  have been the main focus of attention in this thread and its Northumberland predecessor.  So perhaps there are some surprises ahead for him!


Does Grant's work inspire fresh thoughts about the Burgoynes or open up new perspectives for anybody?



Rol


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Offline fizzybubble

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Rarararara for my detective work being right. As you have the tree from Grant (can you not get in touch with him via Ancestry), I dont need to go through the records I have.

I found the Kingsbridge connection but not as far back as Grant.


Fizzy
Cornwall - Mutton Brown Trevethan Mugford Higham
Yorkshire - Thirlwall