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Topic: Help! Butler Family in Clackmannankshire 1871 (Read 2029 times)
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9048
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Pam, you're going to have to look at that marriage cert for Margaret and Thomas Snr. to get any closer now 
Monica
Re the Scots and their approach to sex in that period ...I couldn't possibly comment  
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I hope you dont mind me asking............. 
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I will look at the marriage certificate tonight if I can
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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BLIMEY, it hard to read..very flowing writing. As far as I can make out
marriage 19th March1866
at 52 ?Lundas Street Glasgow.
Thomas was 41, which makes me wonder if he had a previous marriage, perhaps a living wife so he couldnt marry until then............
His occupation is indeciferable it looks like Eonimifsion merchant. At first I wondered if it was something to do with conifers!
His father was Thomas Butler ( again!) deceased.
His mother looks like Ann Butler and her maiden name LOOKS like Bryson, which would make sense.
I thought that this lot were very poor, but farmer are landowners...unless they used that term for agricultural labourers in Scotland. Both marrying parties have their address as 49 ?Arlisighton street?.
at this stage Margaret is saying her age is 26..which would make her born in 1840...figures seem to be very flexible in her case!
Her mother is given as Margaret !( I am sure they did this to make our lives a misery)
Her maiden name looks like Dickson. deceased. Her father as Henry ( or Harry) Reid a commercial traveller deceased. Does that mean both sets of parents were dead??That seems unusual unless there had the plague going on!What on earth was a commercial traveller, I mean how could you travel around selling things in those days unless you were a hawker or something.They had only just got the railways.
Irritatingly I can see the Ministers name was Duncan M'kenzie.
under the witness column is what looks like William Fisher and Henry Reid, the word beneath them is indeciferable but I think it should say witness but it seems to have an f in it!
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9048
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Hi Pam
That confirms Margaret's parents as we had from that 1837 birth (not christening as I have been referring to it!) entry  This looks to be parents' marriage on IGI, actual extract from the Parish Registers:
HENRY REID and MARGARET DICKSON
Marriage: 19 JUL 1825 in Glasgow, Lanark
Apart from Margaret's entry, is this other child:
MARY REID Christening: 25 OCT 1829 Hutchesontown Relief Church, Glasgow
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9048
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From the free searches on SP, there is a death entry showing in Partick, Glasgow City for a Margaret Reid/ Dickson which might be connected. I can't tell her age from the searches what her age was as it has been unrecorded on the index but it will show on the actual image of the cert.
There are also a number of Henry Reid deaths up to 1866 which may also be connected.
Regarding the image you have viewed on SP for Thomas and Margaret's marriage, this can happen. You can contact SP re an 'illegible image' on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/contactus/form.aspx?issue=24
If you provide the GROS ref to the image you viewed and the problems you are having, they will send you back via email an enhanced image for the sections you have a problem making out. SP are very good in responding to this type of not uncommon problem. (You have paid for it, you need to be able to view it and read it!).
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9048
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This looks a possible entry for Margaret at home in the 1841 Census - everyone showing as born in the County except for mother:
Henry Reid 35, vintner
Margt Reid 35, b. Scotland
Henry ReidJr. 15
John Reid 12
Mary Reid 10
James Reid 6
Margt Reid 3
Jean Bryce 15
Address: 5 St Enoch's Wynd, Glasgow St Enochs
Monica
Added: Possible for 1851:
Margret Reid 46, b. Camper (?spl), Stirling
Henry Reid 25, son, clerk, b. Glasgow
John Reid 23, son, upholster, b. Glasgow
Mary Reid 20, daug., b. Glasgow
Margret Reid 14, daug., b. Glasgow
James Richardson 59, visitor,Surgeon Cicentiate Of The Faculte Of Ppiriglong Gasgow Not Procticing
Margret Lang 26, visitor, b. Elderslie, Renfrewshire
Address: 10 George S, Glasgow St Paul
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« Last Edit: Wednesday 10 June 09 10:51 UTC (UK) by MonicaLesl »
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9048
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Look what I found on the last will & testament section of SP  :
Thomas Bryson Butler, 14/12/1867, merchant in Glasgow, Capt and Maj in the Lanarkshire Volunteers, brother of William Harper Butler and Eliza Butler. Last Will and Testament - Glasgow Sheriff Court Wills SC36/51/52
Thomas Bryson Butler,14/12/1867, merchant in Glasgow, died at Craigmore in Randalstown, co Antrim, Ireland, kin of John Butler, Revd Hugh McIntyre Butler, and Mary Campbell Butler, I, Glasgow Sheriff Court Inventories SC36/48/58
Also this entry, which seems to be later addition:
Thomas Bryson Butler, 12/04/1876, Merchant, Glasgow, d. 20/08/1867 at Craighmore, Ireland. Intestate - Corrective Inventory. Glasgow Sheriff Court Inventories SC36/48/79
Must be the right one although I wonder why it doesn't say husband of Margaret Reid as well? From that second entry, looks like Thomas may have died in Ireland which would explain why I can't easily see a death for him in Scotland.
If the correct one, Thomas Snr. looks to have died a week or so after the birth of youngest son Hugh...and who was the father of Augustus who shows as 3 in 1871 (or was he Hugh born in Dec. 1867?)
If the family were moving around with Thomas' occupation, may explain why we can't easily see them in Scotland for the 1861 census perhaps.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9048
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Pam
I'm useless at Irish research  As I know to my own cost on my own research.... 
With the potential references we are getting for Thomas' death in Craigmore, Co Antrim, I don't know if that is where Thomas' family were from.
For example, showing on the Griffiths Valuation of Ireland 1848-64 is this entry:
Thomas Butler, Craigmore, Drummaul, Antrim
I wasn't sure from what you said about Thomas' father, did he show as a farmer?
If we have the correct will & testament entries, there should hopefully be information there to confirm both him being husband to Margaret T Reid and also I would hope his own family. There are numerous references to siblings which could help with searching for his family. We have no idea at this stage where the family originated from and whether they settled in Ireland. We only have at this stage what is potential references on the above will & testament info.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Good God, I am impressed!
You should take this up for a living!
I will try and transcribe some more records tonight. Thank you so much!
Pam
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Mind you, I dont think its the image that is indeciferable but the chaps handwriting! 
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Yes he was a farmer...
in order to make a will they must have had some money or property worth leaving a will about!
This doesnt fit my stereotype....
what on earth was a surgeon doing there!
It looks like the Faculty of somewhere so part of a University, again, I will try and look it up!
Perhaps someone needed an operation!
In the past you didnt go into hospital unless you were poor because of the transmission of infection, you were far more likely to die.....rather like today, the rich go private! I teach nursing!
Or he could have been lodging there or something
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9048
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Pam
I get the feeling that neither Margaret and Thomas' families were struggling...no run of the mill professions or occupations showing there. Apart from Thomas' details that we have so far, Margaret and her children were likely provided for I would imagine following Thomas' death. You can buy the will & testament entries separately on SP (£5 for each document regarding how many pages there are) and view it on line as you do the other images.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9048
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Pam
Sorry, missed your reply last night #29.
My computer has crashed last week (not looking good ) and I am currently using my husband's laptop but can't access my direct emails at present.
I do have a subs to Ancestry and have been looking at the family trees that show there for your line in England.
Not sure if you have noticed but there is a tree for Margaret V.'s sister, Ruby including husband and some descendents. Tree shows under Saxton/Gee family There is a contact email showing which you could try and see. Be good for you to compare notes! There is no death info showing for either Alfred or Margaret V., but there are details there certainly for Alfred's parents and a little on Thomas B.
There is also another tree, Peter and Annette's Family Tree, which is the same lines. Some of this info varies and some of it we know is wrong going back to Scotland and what we have now found, but again, would be worthwhile you contacting them also to see where you can compare what you have now found to date.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9048
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Pam
I keep on leaving your Butlers and then coming back
There is a strong indication that the Butler family, or at least the children may have been born in Co. Antrim. Have a look at this link on Mary Campbell Butler who shows as sister to Thomas on his W & T entries on SP;
http://awtc.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:2516992&id=I526133761&ti=5538
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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