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Topic: Help! Butler Family in Clackmannankshire 1871 (Read 2172 times)
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9157
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Hi Pam
These are the actual births that we have found:
1. MARGARET THOMSON REID Birth: 17 MAY 1856 Tradeston, Glasgow
2. THOMAS BRYSON BUTLER Birth: 20 DEC 1857 Hutchesontown, Glasgow
3. HENRY WALTER BUTLER Birth: 24 MAR 1866 Milton, Glasgow
4. HUGH BUTLER Birth: 07 DEC 1867 Govan, Lanark
The birth regs we haven't yet found on IGI (would be worth checking on SP):
From the 1871 census:
James Butler 9 - can't see his birth on IGI
William R Butler 7 - can't see his birth on IGI
Augustus A Butler 3 - can't see his birth on IGI
On the issue of birth places, Renfrewshire and Lanarkshire (where Glasgow is to be found) are separate counties, see these maps for guidance:
www.scotlandsfamily.com/county-map.htm
www.scotlandsfamily.com/parish-maps.htm - just click on a county to see a map of the parishes within that county
Henry and Harry are interchangeable. Not seen Henry and Hugh used that way (Hugh can be interchangeable with Ewen). This is a great site for name variants www.whatsinaname.net
In your position Pam, I would view the birth entry for Thomas B. Jnr to see what it says about parents given that we know that it is before their marriage in 1866.
Monica
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9157
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A little light relief from the Butlers and Sheppards 
I think this Charlotte Griffin's birth entry:
Births 4th Qrt 1860
GRIFFIN Charlotte - Shipston on Stour 6d 509
Likely family census entries for the Griffins:
1861 - RG9; Piece: 2237; Folio: 90; Page: 14
1871- RG10; Piece: 3214; Folio: 65; Page: 17
1881 - RG11; Piece: 3110; Folio: 35; Page: 12
We have Charlotte now married to Thomas B. from 1891 - 1901 and initial checks show her and Thomas in Edmonton in 1911.
Monica
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I have found that wiki says that there was some anomaly which meant that that Govan had a bit of Renfrewshire in it!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Govan
As for the life of me I dont understand the geography it passes me by, but may explain the records........? ::)Its no wonder I find it confusing! 
I suppose its like the fact that Scotland Yard was part of Scotland in the olden days..............after all why shouldnt you have a bit of Scotland in the middle of London! I dont know why anyone would think that strange!
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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OK I have accessed the will for Thomas Bryson Butler. It all in legal jargon but apparently he died on a temporary visit to Craigmore Randalstown County Antrim on 20/8/1867.
According to the will he died in testate as he had written a will prior to his marriage, under the arrangements, his widow would get 1 third of his estate, his children one third.....I think the tax man got the rest, I still have to work it out!
His overall legacy was £8269 10 9d
but they took .......£3288 in taxes!
Leaving £4981 3s!
Bloody hell! 
I have found a site which computed how much this would be worth today the 8K would be worth
£536,766.64 using the retail price index.
£4,881,882.99 using average earnings.
By the time they had taken a cut ....
In 2008, £4981 2s 12d from 1867 is worth
£323,334.69 using the retail price index.
£2,940,723.19 using average earnings.
I am not sure which calculation is more accurate in terms of wealth, Retail Price index or average earnings..............
it is a moral against dying intestate!!
How on earth did his grandaughter end up as a servant marrying a milkman!
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9157
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Which ever way you look at it, the family were certainly wealthy  Story of life Pam how family fortunes then go on to vary. As you say, I wonder what happened in the intervening years.
Monica
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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My friend has come with a theory that he was poisoned!  Probably by his brother who wanted to bump him off before he made a will!! Its a rather colourful version of events..........even though the Victorians were notorious poisoners as it was hard to detect.
I wonder if there is a mention of his death or whatever in the newspapers of that time. This does explain why I was finding it so hard to work him out, he was only married to her for a few months. Then there are the other listed children, its a bit of a mystery I am determined to get to the bottom of. Can I access the papers for that period anywhere?
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merryhow
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 263
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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You say that Thomas wrote his Will before he married.
1) What date, before or after the births of the older children ?
2) If after the births does he name the children born before the marriage in 1866 in his Will?
I may be wrong but I think that unless the children were named, only those born within marriage would be entitled to inherit.
That would take us down to Hugh and Augustus A, who ,I have a feeling are the same person.
Just some of my thoughts let's see what other have to say.
Val
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9157
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Hi Val
I agree with you re Augustus v. Hugh names. There is a death which I think I mentioned earlier (loosing track..post is getting long!) for an Augustus Butler b. 1868 who died somewhere in Glasgow in 1877. Given Hugh/Augustus doesn't show in 1881 census, did wonder if this was him.
Pam, by the sounds of it you have downloaded one W & T document. Expensive I know, but I think you may only get the full picture of Thomas Snr.'s arrangements for his family from perhaps looking also at the other two entries that show.
The other thing that you could follow up would be any newspaper reports on his death. To access these, if they exist, you would have to look at the newspaper archives for The Scotsman newpapers and also Gale, which covers more local newpapers including at least one of the Glasgow ones. Both are subscription services, which some people here on RC have access to. The Gale one I believe can be accessed at libraries, so you could check with your local library whether this service is available.
To stop rumours growing on the cause of Thomas Snr.'s death you could also order his death cert from the Irish GRO, you have the date and location for his death. A post on the General Ireland board here on RC would I am sure advice you on how to proceed on this one.
Monica 
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9157
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This is the most obvious death for Margaret mother, if she kept close to her actual age:
Deaths 2nd Qrt 1893
Margaret Thomson Butler, 53, Bethnal Green 1c 162
Not sure what a wealthy widow would be doing there to be honest....this is Jack the Ripper territory at that time
Can't be the right entry for mother Margaret! Specially when we have the 1901 entry for son William living in luxury in Kensngton, RG13; Piece: 19; Folio: 103; William Bryson Butler shows as Financier and Director of Public Companies.
Interesting entries
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Sorry I have completely lost track? I dont understand? I thought we had the right Margaret and she became more hard up for some reason, as regards the death...well lots of people died of 'gastric flu' in those days!! Its just that there is a conspiracy theory that he went to Ireland to tell his brother he had married and they were so put out that they gave him some 'nourishing soup' laced with fly papers...all totally circumstantial of course!!!
I will see what more I can find, but I don't know about these other entries where her son is living in luxury???
I will access the other two entries for the will!Its a really intriguing story............... 
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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He seems to have paid some taxes like stamp duty, so my assumption was he had made a will, without doing a crash course in Scottish Legal History I dont know, the entry spends a lot of time talking about how much money he had spent on stamp duty etc prior to his death..........................it then says that he had since married so therefore he died intestate.
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I think I will download the other wills and take this one step at a time as the other entries have confused me a bit? Once I get that bit straight I will see what can be established from there about her children unless anyone else can unravel it and come to some conclusion??
In Victorian times it was not unusual to go from wealth to poverty...see Dickens, so it is possible she fell on hard times, I dont know!
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I have the death certificate for Charlotte Griffing. She died 3 rd Jan 1934 at home of a stroke at 35 Argle Rd Tottenham  . Now looking at Google earth it is a not exactly a posh area ( apologies to anyone who lives there).
Noticeably it is not far away from Sandringham rd where my father lived when he married his wife in 1934 (secret marriage)
This gives me the impression that he met my mother in that area, so the family would have been well rooted, so maternal grandmother and father would probably have lived there as well.
Charlottes occupation was listed as Widow of Thomas Bryson Butler, preparer of ingredients for Bovril(!) Presumably Thomas's occupation is listed rather than hers? Her death was registered by E Butler, her daughter.
I will start a thread to try to track down my maternal grandmother and grandfathers death cert in the Edmonton area London as I now have much more detail than when I tried before.
I am still trying to work out Margarets children and will try to access the wills and his death certificate.
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9157
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Pam
Sounds like you have been making progress Lets hope some new info arises!
Monica
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I now have a census return re Margaret Reid. I find the occupations difficult to read but I think it is to do with cotton weaving or something? I notice there is a silk one there in the same area. I think I have read that Govan used to have weavers cottages there before industrialisation. Perhaps that was the problem? Margaret came from a lower station in life??
It looks like she was born in relative poverty and died in relative poverty, so any money she had got was short lived>>>>can anyone else make out the occupations?
Pam
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henry_reid.TIF