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Topic: Help! Butler Family in Clackmannankshire 1871 (Read 2015 times)
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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It looks like one person was a winder of cotton, another a sewer and lots of people were Cotton H.L.N?
This is the 1841 census
Pam
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I have found this reference to weavers cottages...on the Govan story website
Thatched Cottages
By all accounts, the Govan weavers' thatched cottages were picturesque. With flower gardens in front, and kailyards behind, they offered an idyllic picture of country living to visitors from Glasgow. There is some evidence, however, to suggest that behind their quaint exteriors, many offered quite primitive accommodation.
In 1917, J Skinner described the home of his neighbours in the 1840s, a weaver and his wife called Smellie.
"The house consisted of one living room to the left of a passage which led through to the garden. On the opposite side was a two-loomed weaving shop - one being usually let to another weaver. The floor was earthen and uneven, little plaster on the walls, the ceiling dirty and hanging with cobwebs, and still they sang and joked at their work..."
JP Park remembered that, with the decline of weaving and the advent of heavy engineering, the old cottages became popular with incomers searching for cheap accommodation:
"traces of the older life lingered on especially in the "Auld Toon,". as that portion of the thatched cottages which clustered round the low road still continued to be named. Naturally these old houses were cheap, and the alien Irish labourers were not slow to learn this, for Dan Bow's Land was so famous for fights and Saturday night skirmishes that we used to sing a song about it..."
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9024
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Hi Pam
I don't think you have the right family for your Margaret with that 1841 original image entry unfortunately.
Remember from her marriage entry in 1866, her parents were Henry R and Margaret Dickson. Val found her christening entry:
MARGARET THOMSON REID ch Dec 1837 GORBALS Lanark
Father- Henry Reid, Mother- Margaret Dickson. IGI extracted
And then we had parents' marriage and one other sibling all from IGI:
HENRY REID and MARGARET DICKSON
Marriage: 19 JUL 1825 in Glasgow, Lanark
Apart from Margaret's entry, is this other child:
MARY REID Christening: 25 OCT 1829 Hutchesontown Relief Church, Glasgow
From there we moved on to likely census entries and we had these likely entries for 1841/51:
1841:
Henry Reid 35, vintner
Margt Reid 35, b. Scotland
Henry ReidJr. 15
John Reid 12
Mary Reid 10
James Reid 6
Margt Reid 3
Jean Bryce 15
Address: 5 St Enoch's Wynd, Glasgow St Enochs
1851:
Margret Reid 46, b. Camper (?spl), Stirling
Henry Reid 25, son, clerk, b. Glasgow
John Reid 23, son, upholster, b. Glasgow
Mary Reid 20, daug., b. Glasgow
Margret Reid 14, daug., b. Glasgow
James Richardson 59, visitor,Surgeon Cicentiate Of The Faculte Of Ppiriglong Gasgow Not Procticing Roll Eyes
Margret Lang 26, visitor, b. Elderslie, Renfrewshire
Address: 10 George S, Glasgow St Paul
Trying to pull things together from the previous responses, making this response a tad long!
Monica 
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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OH Bugger!
Thanks for letting me know. I will recheck! After I had worked out why they hadnt married and everything! 
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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its the children that are confusing me. This family have several of the same names and live in the right area! I thought this was Margarets parents.? But how do we know that the previous lot are correct and these arent?I tend to work on an assumption that children may have died in those days, they had something like a 40% mortality rate. I havent worked out the ages yet, so that could be how I suppose! 
When I am not knackered I will take another look!!
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9024
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We are just making best guesses at this stage Pam with the info we have gathered to date
The main document we are working off at present for Margaret Reid is her marriage certificate which includes her parents' names. From that, we found her christening entry with those parents in the right place (as per the census entry where she shows the Gorbals) and time frame.
With Margaret having likely died in England, we can't do the double verification that you could normally do with a Scottish death but her marriage entry was pretty clear. The other document you might want to search for on SP may be mother Margaret Dickson/Reid's death. Hopefully she made it past the start of official registration in Scotland from 1855.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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merryhow
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 263
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Monica and Pam, I've had a long day between Park Circus and the "Mitchell". By the time I was finished with my Alloa/Portsoy lot I was almost braindead but had a quick look at this problem family.
THOMAS BRYSON BUTLER 20th Dec 1857 , 84/54 (difficult to read) Cumberland St. Father Thomas Bryson Butler, Mother Margaret Butler M.S. Reid. No date of marriage listed.
HENRY WALTER BUTLER 24th Mar 1866,49 Arlington St, Parents as above. Parents marriage 19th Mar 1866. Father's occupation - Shawl Manufacturer.
HUGH BUTLER 7th Dec 11a.m. 5 Broghton Pl Govan. Parents as above, father woolen manufacturer (deceased.)
From the G.P.O.DIRECTORIES
1863/64 BUTLER THOMAS B (of GOW, BUTLER & Co) 55 Wilson St.
1864/65 as above
1866/67 BUTLER THOMAS B (of BUTLER, FISHER & Co) House 5 Brighton Pl Govan .
Last one ties in nicely with Hugh's birth address.
FOOD FOR THOUGHT TIME!!! As we have so far failed to find a birth for an AUGUSTUS BUTLER(with or without an A) did Margaret adopt/fall heir to him? I noticed this- AUGUSTUS ANGEL REID, 26th Nov 1868, Anderston, Glasgow. Father Matthew Reid, Mother Elizabeth Fairnie.
Matthew Reid = Elizabeth Finnie, 22nd Dec 1865 Tradeston Glasgow.
Two other children showing on the IGI Agnes 1866 Tradeston and Isabella 1874 Greenock.
Didn't have time to try connecting Matthew and Margaret but it might be worth a try.
Val
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Val, I remain very grateful to you, although I am a little confused!  I will keep plodding on ironing out the children bit by bit! Its like unravelling knitting!
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I will look for the mothers death certificate. Thank you for your patience!
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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OK
I have accessed more of Thomas Bryson Butlers Will.
UnfortunateLy I cant work out how to see how to view the third page, so I have written to Scotlands people to ask how as I am struggling technically.....
the story so far.................................
The will was written in 14th Dec 1867.
Thomas names the following as executors
Rev Hugh McIntyre Butler Minister of the Parish of Magilligan Londonderry, John Butler shopkeeper and farmer in Randalstown Coutry Antrim ( that must have been who he was visiting) and Mary Campbell Butler from Craigmore County Antrim..his brothers and sisters I think. Clearly there was a strong Irish link.
He says that within two weeks of his death the sum of two hundred pounds should be paid to Margaret Thompson Reid, known as Mrs Robinson (!) who resides at 197 North Street, and that within 6 months of his death a two thousand pound Trust fund should be set up to provide for her and the children subsequently named in the will at the bottom. He then goes on to make a donation to his sister in gratitude of her sisterly affection and then irritatingly the image runs out!
So either Margaret was married before or she went under the Mrs Alias to cover up the fact she was not married to him!!!Its so romantic 
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9024
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 This is better than a modern thriller Pam! Where oh where does that reference to Mrs Robinson come in I wonder?
A healthy amount of money Margaret and children (to be confirmed) were left by any standards today.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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merryhow
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 263
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Pam, just spotted an omission in my last post.
Hugh Butler b 7th Dec 1867 (missed the year) . If his father was dead how did he write a will on the 14th Dec 1867.
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hang on.................I have just realised that the date at the top of the document was AFTER he was supposed to have died. He died in August but the top of the will is dated 14th of Dec 1867!
Well orIginally I thought he was a ne'er do well who deserted his wife- the swine! The next theory was that he was poisoned by his horrible relatives because they didnt like her and he had married. My current version is..................
they have loved each other for years but for some reason couldnt marry.....................she lived incognito as Mrs Robinson to cover up the children being illegitimate...or perhaps one of them had a living spouse.........................he realises he is terminally ill at 46 , he marries her and his brother does the wedding, its a secret wedding which is why they didn't marry openly in a church, he makes a death bed will but it takes ten years to sort out the legal complications because the adjustment made ten years later mentions he had contracted a marriage prior to his death and leaves Margaret a third of his estate !
To think how I maligned him! its so romantic
It doesnt SOUND like a divided family, he leaves money to his sister and his brother married him, and they sound strong Protestants, so why this peculiar arrangement??
Its no good, I am going to have to search for his death certificate and the papers!
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9024
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Hi Val
On a different point....Robinson.....I wonder  From 1861:
Thomas Robinson 35, Traveller For Manufacture, b. Ireland
Margaret J Robinson 23, wife, b. Glasgow...the original image may show 'T' rather than 'J'?
Margaret J Robinson 4, daughter, b. Glasgow
Thomas Robinson 3, son, b. glasgow...could this be your Thomas?
Walter Robinson 8 Months, son, b. Glasgow
Jean Ker 19, servant
Address: 14 Neilson Ter, Partick, Glasgow Govan
Pam, I'm begining to wonder whether in fact it was Thomas snr. who may have been married already when he met Margaret and the household went by the name of Robinson in the early years. Maybe it was not until 1866 that Thomas Snr. was free to marry if first wife died by then.
Pure imagination on my part, but where are you in research without a little bit of that when hard facts are hard to find 
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Our thoughts crossed like ships in the night! We got the date from the adjustment, either it was wrong or my version above is true. Its tragic, tragic!!
Hold on for the next episode............... 
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