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Topic: Help! Butler Family in Clackmannankshire 1871 (Read 2060 times)
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I am really stuck on my family records for this part of the family.
I am looking at
Margaret T Butler birth either 1838 or 42!
In 1871 census she is described as the head, so no husband listed, I assume he must be dead, or run away, but I cant find a wedding record or them in any 1861 census, in either England or Scotland.
In fact I find it very difficult to find many records of this family at all, other than what I have below!
Margaret T..born in Gorbals Lanarkshire residing in 1871 in dollar Clackmannanshire ...aged 33
Children
Maggie B Butler born 1859
Thomas B Butler 1860 or 59 died 1921
James P Butler 1861
James Butler 1862...did the first one die? For several of these children the names are repeated, so maybe they are just inexact about when they were born in census records, I suspect thats the case. Perhaps she just got confused!  .
William R Butler 1864 /5 William B Butler 1864!
Harry W Butler 1866/7
Augustus A Butler. aged 3 in 1871.
That would indicate her mystery husband would have died or absconded around 1867 ish
I cant find death certificates for any of them, I cant find Margaret Ts marriage, I cant find any christening etc or birth certificates or indeed anything to say who her mysterious husband was or who their parents were......
In 1881 she is residing in Edinburgh St Cuthberts Midlothian
but in 1891 she seems to be down in Chelsea London listed as 53. After that I lose all track of her again.
It would be really helpful if I could find out about her marriage, parents or whatever for those missing ten years when she is having all those children, I am finding it much harder to find things in the Scottish records than the English ones re birth marriages and deaths etc. So at the moment its a frustrating dead end.
Any help gratefully appreciated.
Pam
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9078
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Hi Pam
Have you managed to confirm Margaret T's maiden name?
Monica 
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9078
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Pam
I found the following information which may be relevant.
There is a marriage showing on Scotlands People www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk:
1866 Thomas Bryson BUTLER and Margaret Thomson Reid married in Tradeston, Glasgow City
Children showing to them on IGI www.familysearch.org:
1. THOMAS BRYSON BUTLER Birth: 20 DEC 1857 Hutchesontown, Glasgow
3. HENRY WALTER BUTLER Birth: 24 MAR 1866 Milton, Glasgow
2. HUGH BUTLER Birth: 07 DEC 1867 Govan, Lanark
Given the date of the marriage (1866), maybe the other birth might show under Reid (?). The marriage cert available on line will let you see ages for Thomas and Margaret and Margaret parents' names to let you try to confirm what info you have so far.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9078
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There are a number of possible deaths up to 1881 for Hugh and Augustus showing in Glasgow City which might be Margaret's children given their ages.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Apologies for not acknowledging these replies. I did not get any notification for some reason.
Thank you for your kind assistance.
Since I posted this however I have made another discovery. My grandmother was also called Butler, and was born in Govan in 1891!!
This grandmother is equally elusive.
She married Albert Elisha Sheppard in Edmonton in 1910
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Apologies for not acknowledging these replies. I did not get any notification for some reason.
Thank you for your kind assistance.
Since I posted this however I have made another discovery. My grandmother was also called Butler, and was born in Govan in 1891!!
This grandmother is equally elusive. 
She married Albert Elisha Sheppard in Edmonton in 1910.
Shown as living at 423 Wighman Rd Hornsey in the 1911 census ( someone sent me a copy)
Her children were
Ruby Violet Sheppard 1911- 1981
Ada A Sheppard 1912-
and Dorothy E Sheppard 1914 -
I continue to have problems finding details....although I don't for my fathers side.
What I was told was that my grandmother 'went funny' when my grandfather came back from the War as she thought he was dead, and that they 'had to take her away'. I never met her.
However by anybodies standard I come from a dysfunctional family with lots of secrets. I have only just discovered that my parents weren't married. For years I was told a cock and bull story!
Anyhow, I have had difficulty tracing any of my relatives after that, so I have never been able to find my grandfathers death, or my Auntie Ada's wedding ( I have a strange feeling that she married a second time and was called Denny or similar, but cant swear to it. As for my Aunt Dorothy I only saw her once and she never spoke to me at all!
It would be very interesting to find out the truth about my grandmother, I wonder whether she did 'go funny' or she left him? If so she may have gone back to Glasgow. Even if she died in an Institution there should be a death certificate. I would love the know the truth and to try and get some records on this difficult to trace family.
I don't know if its my search technique that is lousy or just that they were not straightforward. I searched for my parents marriage for ten years before finding out they were never married!
Now my mother was not buried as Sheppard, so apparently they allowed the death certificate in her 'married ' name, I gather this settling down and pretending to be married was quite common, but it does make finding records difficult.
I will send for Margaret Vs wedding certificate to see if that helps............
I am VERY grateful for any help, its hard to trace your family when you have been denied information...... 
Pam
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I now have a name for Margaret Violet Butlers father ....
in 1910 it is listed as Thomas Brighton Butler a newsagent on her wedding cert!
Goodness knows how he could support his family!
I wonder if he walked out then, he was alive in 1910?? I have never heard of a travelling newsagent!
This sounds like the Thomas Bryson you mentioned...I have never heard anyone called Brighton!
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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This is really very helpful. So far I have only been using Ancesrty.co.uk. At the moment I am struggling to access the Gedcom file. I have downloaded the driver but still cant work it out!!
I will try again tomorrow!!
Thanks
Pam
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9078
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Hi Pam
This looks like a possible entry for Margaret with father Thomas and family in the 1891 census in Cavendish Square, Marylebone:
Thomas B Butter, 31, licensed victualler cellarman, b. Scotland
Charlotte, wife, 29, b. Campden, Gloucestershire
Jos. That. son, 2, b. Marybone London
Margaret V., 1, b. Campden, Gloucestershire
Sarah Bishop, lodger, 73, b. Trowbridge, Wiltshire,
RG12; Piece: 92; Folio 39; Page 71;
By 1901, the family show in Edmonton (where you have your Gran marrying in 1910) - refs RG13; Piece: 1252; Folio: 57; Page: 44. Thomas father shows as a greengrocer.
Possible marriage for Thomas and Charlotte:
Marriages 1st Qrt 1888
BUTLER Thomas Bryson/ Griffin Charlotte Marylebone 1a 837
The marriage cert if the right one, might let you confirm father's details to compare what we have found on the Scottish records.
Regarding your problems on Ancestry, not sure what problems you are having. Are you trying to view images using their enhanced image viewer? If so, it doesn't work for me either! Chose the option to view on the existing viewer not the enhanced viewer download.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9078
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Possible marriage for your Aunt Ada:
Marriages 1st Qrt 1935
Sheppard Ada A/ Denney Edward A Edmonton 3a 1113
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Brilliant, you found the marriage for my Aunt Ada!!
As regards the Butter entries, I previously had that but it has people being born in the wrong place, not Scotland, so I have just had to change Margaret Vs details etc. I will have another look,
Thanks!!
Any help is greatly appreciated......
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I havent had time to look at it today but I remember last night struggling with the ages..............
I had Margaret B marrying Thomas B but then realised that the ages didnt work out, it was a bit difficult to follow. I will put the details up tomorrow if I have time. Perhaps I have a missing generation..........
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9078
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Hi Pam
This looks like Margaret Violet's birth reg (all my references are on FreeBmd):
Births 1st Qrt 1890
Butler Margaret Violet - Shipston 6d 662
Can't see the gaps on ages that you refer to, let me know where you think there may be one
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi, well part of the mystery is solved there were two lots of Butlers, one in Govan....
I have apparently been in a circle
what I have now is two Thomas Butlers.
One Thomas B Butler born around 1859 in Chipping Camden
who seems to have been married to Charlotte
I also have a Thomas Bryson Butler married to Margaret Thompson Reid born In Hutchestown Glasgow 1857
The difficulty I have with ages related to Margarets children, as according to my records she would have had some of them very young!!
Which made me think I had muddled up different generations. I havent had time yet to try to sort her children out.
Margaret V Butlers marriage certificate
says her father was Thomas BRIGHTON Butler, a newsagent! He was not a witness to the wedding, I had convinced myself he was a ne'er do well who had left his wife!! and someone had misspelt his name...a deaf registrar or something. It was a registry office wedding as she was 5 months pregnant with my mother....big scandal!
My family was, and still is very dysfunctional, through ancestry someone traced me and I found a nephew, who also has spent ages trying to find out who his relatives were as his mother refuses to discuss it! We are in secret communication, his in his 30s and I am 57!! I mean its ridiculous! Its not unreasonable to want to know if you have any relatives. 
I will relook at the wedding cert as a Sheppard is a witness so will see if I can see that person anywhere.
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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The witness was R J Sheppard.
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