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Topic: Help! Butler Family in Clackmannankshire 1871 (Read 2162 times)
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9121
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Hi Pam
Not often you and I have been on together at the same time  I think you are getting into a pickle with names and dates on the early stuff  Let me try and do a summary of where I think we are with the Scottish records and the earlier English ones...back on a moment...!
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9121
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From the information you posted earlier on and I added to:
1. We have a Margaret T Butler who shows as born in Glasgow between 1838-42. We have children showing to her and a Thomas Bryson Butler Snr. from 1857. Still to find her in 1861 census.
2. We have found a marriage between a Thomas Bryson Butler and a Margaret Thomson Reid in 1866 in Glasgow. If you viewed this certificate on Scotlands People it would give you some information on Thomas B Butler Snr. about who we know nothing about at this stage (age, occupation, his parents' names etc). We would also be able to confirm details about Margaret and verify what we are seeing regarding her in respect of age and hopefully find birth/family details for the two of them.
3. We have Margaret with the children in 1871, still no sign of husband Thomas in Clackmannanshire. Then Edinburgh for the 1881 census and London for the 1891 census.
4. We then have a Thomas Bryson Butler marrying a Charlotte Griffing in Marelybone London in 1888.
A Margaret Violet was born to this couple in 1890 and we have found a likely birth entry for her in Gloucestershire (which matches what we can see on the 1891 and 1901 censuses). In 1901, the family are living in Edmonton, where Margaret V. marries in 1910.
5. The age of Thomas Bryson Butler, husband of Charlotte, matches the age (only a few years out which is not unusual) of the Thomas born in Glasgow in 1857 to parents Thomas Bryson Butler Snr. and Margaret T Reid. The only mistake I can see on the 1901 census is that place of birth for Charlotte and Thomas has been entered the wrong way round - Charlotte is showing Scotland and Thomas is showing Camden, Gloucestershire. I think this is simply an error, and the info is correct on the 1891 census. You might want to try and find Thomas and Charlotte on the 1911 census for further info, including his occupation at that point (we have seen a couple of changes for him over the previous censuses).
6. At this stage, we have no info whatsoever on Thomas B Butler Snr. - can't see a death for him in Scotland when I looked. No idea whether he was actually born in Scotland, can't see him in the earlier censuses as yet in Scotland. Only that 1866 marriage cert will give you some info on him (and Margaret wife) at this stage.
Pam, I do think we have been following the generations in order and bar a few mistakes on the way info has been entered, everything that we have found so far does point to the right family for Margaret V (parents and paternal grandparents).
Where does the reference to Govan for Margaret come in?
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Ah! Thomas Bryson born in Hutcheson was the son...........................
who then married Charlotte.
The witness was RJ Sheppard who I think was Ruby Jessie Sheppard born in Dec 1887 in Islington
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9121
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Yep
Thomas and Charlotte show in Edmonton in 1911, would be worthwhile you checking that one out!
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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These people led such complicated lives!
Parents and children called the same names....siblings who die and then next one is called the same name...........people changing the spelling of names, people getting dates wrong, places changing!
I mean its a miricle we can ever unravel what on earth was going on!
Then you have people who were pretending to be married and weren't! But changed their name anyway!
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I dont know how to access the 1911 census records...ancestry dont have them  ..............you are brilliantly helpful, thanks
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merryhow
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 263
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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MARGARET THOMSON REID ch Dec 1837 GORBALS Lanark
Father- Henry Reid, Mother- Margaret Dickson. IGI extracted
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9121
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The 1911 census for England is only available through www.1911census.co.uk (the same company who do the Scottish BMDs at Scotlands People). Pay to view as all these things are.
Thomas' death in Edmonton in 1921 as you said. Age a bit light at 56, but as you said, what's new 
Thanks merryhow, that entry looks spot on!
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9121
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Charlotte's death some time later:
Deaths 1st Qrt 1934
Butler Charlotte, 73, Edmonton 3a 864
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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You are helpful!
I am just starting to add some of this info now...I know what was puzzling me, I have Margaret T Reid being born in 1842 and T B Butler, her presumed son born in 1857!
I will re look at it as I enter your data as that would make her a mother at 13!
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I cant add up! She would be between 15 -17 
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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No it isnt! Its 15-19! Hopefully at the upper end! I am slandering this woman
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9121
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You're not slandering her Pam, she just wasn't very reliable on her quoted ages was she! We have a potential christening for her in the Gorbals in 1837 (this may not be necessarily the year she was born as some children would be christened much later). From a previous post:
MARGARET THOMSON REID ch Dec 1837 GORBALS Lanark
Father- Henry Reid, Mother- Margaret Dickson. IGI extracted
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9121
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She not only lost a few years along the way, but also her children. From that 1871 Census entry in Clackmannanshire:
Margaret Butler 29 - likely b. 1837 or before
Maggie B Butler 12 * - likely 1856
Thomas B Butler 11 - b. 1857
James Butler 9 - can't see his birth on IGI
William R Butler 7 - can't see his birth on IGI
Harry W Butler 5 b. 1866
Augustus A Butler 3 - can't see his birth on IGI
Eliza Davis 23, visitor
Address: Helen Pl, Dollar
I wonder whether this is daughter Maggie's birth reg:
MARGARET THOMSON REID Birth: 17 MAY 1856 Tradeston, Glasgow - mother Margaret Reid
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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No wonder I am confused!
I got the children off of census records. I will work my way through it bit by bit to cross check....with a cup of tea!
I cant imagine she would have had a child before the age of 16?
She sounds like she led a rather troubled life! Or free and easy, depending on your perspective.........I always thought the Scots quite Calvanistic, so rather old fashioned about sex..............but then I dont know anything about it. I am struggling with my geography as it is! By the latest census record, if correct, though she was living with two of her sons in London, who had become clerks, an aspirational job if you were poor, so she had some success, but her husband does seem rather elusive, its only due to your help I have worked out who he was! Her census dates for the birth of her children were also rather odd, if you look at my early entry. I wasnt sure if she had had children that had died, but I cant imagine so many did! I will go through it, I am NOWHERE near as good as searching as you, I spend hours looking in thw wrong place and have not used these alternative sources, so I am learning a lot.
As you are so amazingly brilliant, I couldnt ask the favour of your trying to find my grandmothers death could I and my grandfathers? I have spent AGES looking for both and it may tell me something about close relatives. I dont like to intrude on your time but you have been such a boon, you have saved me literally hours of searching and blind alleys. If you are able to send me your email address ( I dont know how) I could invite you to look at the tree on ancestry, unless you have an ID on there anyhow? Of course please dont put yourself out if you are busy, you have done SO much to help. It rather a cheek me asking you but I thought I would as it would make it so much quicker, it could be years for me to find them at this rate!
I can just about remember my grandfather. As a child I remember him dying, I dont think I could have been more than twelve. But I also remember something about him dying in his 90's but that cant be the case as I would have been older. I was born in 51, but I am sure I was younger then 12. Its so difficult as I have so little to hang my hat on.
I was told he was gassed in the War but couldnt find his war record, and as I said earlier I was told my granmother had gone 'funny' and had to be taken away!
I just wonder how much was true as my family were so very good about lying about anything they wanted in order to present a respectable front...not easy to achieve I would have thought!
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