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Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8]
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Topic: Help! Butler Family in Clackmannankshire 1871 (Read 2055 times)
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Its incredible!
Its turns out that Hugh Mcintyre Butler was something of a local celebrity not least because he lived to 104! Someone has sent me a book about the history of the church and he has quite a bit in there. I will see if the church still exists!
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I have got some answers at least as I can now see the whole of the will.
Thomas Bryson made his will in 1864. At that time he wasnt married to Margaret Reid ( Mrs Robinson!)
Two years later he suddenly decides to marry her. I wonder if his father had died, or he was terminally ill.
He didnt make another will, perhaps he was told he didnt have to as his new wife was already named. In the will he names Margaret and her children saying a Trust fund should be set up and naming his brothers and sister as executors. He says in his will he wants to avoid complications after his death but it seems he didnt succeed as the adjustment ten years later says that when Thomas died his estate was treated as intestate, however it is now clear he made a valid will and marriage prior to his death. The estate is therefore divided up 1 third to wife, one third to children and the taxman gets a big chunk!
He also leaves bits of money to friends and family, plus leaves money to the Church, in particular the one Hugh Mcintrye was Rev of in Ireland. I have been contacted by someone who won the 'Butler prize' which Hugh set up. I wonder if the money Thomas left was used for that purpose? I also wonder if his family even knew about Margaret as they all seem to be in Ireland. I am sending for Thomas's death certificate, but I have learnt and incredible amount about this family. I wonder if that is why Margaret ends up in London in relative poverty as she got nothing for quite some time and would have been bringing up a family without support. Here is an image of Hugh Mcintyres church It is copyrighted but permission is given to reproduce it 
Quite a bit on the Antrim board but no progress trying to find out about Edmonton end post 1930 I am afraid.
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9077
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Pam
You have done incredibly well with the help with the Antrim board RCs  You have been able to flesh out Thomas' family in Ireland, including death details for his parents and information on the extended family. This is quite a feat with Irish records!
The English records and certainly the most recent events are going to be more difficult as you are finding.
As you are doing on the Scottish and Irish records, I think you are going to have to dig down and follow every record that may be available to try and flesh out what happened once the family moved to England, where you find them from the late 1880s. The last entry in Scotland for them is that 1881 census entry in Edinburgh.
You need to be able to verify, if you haven't already, the marriage entries we have so far:
Thomas and Charlotte (Griffin) - to confirm father's name
William and Edith - to confirm father's name. This looks to be the marriage ref:
Marriages 2nd Qrt 1897: William Bryson Butler and Edith Gertrude Shuttleworth at Paddington - 1a/ 95
You also have the only clear potential death for the Margaret Thomson Butler in Bethnal Green that we found earlier - might be worthwhile you either confirming or eliminating this one.
You have Thomas and Charlotte in Censuses from 1891 - 1911. You also have the death certificates for Thomas and Charlotte in later years
For Margaret Violet, you have her marriage to Alfred E. S. in 1910 and then the 1911 census entry. You also now have confirmation of at least 3 daughters born to them. You also have two of their daughters' marriage certs (one of them your mother's).
Unravelling what happened in the 1920s and after to the family will be hard given the recentness of events. One check that you may want to do is on the electoral rolls for the addresses you have. Perhaps the address showing for Ada at the time of her marriage in 1935 was her father's address?
You could also try checking from the address(es) that show at the time of the births of the 3 daughters. Margaret V. won't show until around 1918-20 on the roll which was around the time that women got the right to vote. You might be surprised though and find her still in the home early 1920s, who knows really until you check.
On a personal note, I am always a little wary of family stories of someone "going a little mad" and never being heard of since  This can be a cover perhaps for adultery or marriage breakdowns where no divorce took place. It could be that Margaret and Alfred's marriage simply broke down and Margaret left the marital home to start a life with someone else, something that the immediate family may have found hard to discuss. With this scenario, it may be that Margaret's death could be registered under a different surname if she passed off as married in future years. This makes finding her death certificate somewhat impossible 
Your search for her roots however has been remarkable Even without her death entry, you have been on a path of discovery that means everything to you.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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You have been wonderfully helpful.  I have been trying to find out my mothers side of the family for ages. I had no idea that they werent from England its no wonder I couldnt find them.
How do I look up an electoral role?
I am sure my grandmother didnt go mad! The story goes that she thought my grandfather had died in the War, and that he came through the garden gate one day and it was such a shock to her that she 'went funny' and had to be 'taken away'! I would love to know the truth. I suspect she was less than pleased to see him back! I have been told such a load of old cobblers when I have been given any information at all! Its most empowering finding out what really went on and the truth of my background; and as everyone is long since dead no one is hurt. I am going to make a little book up with my grand daughter, aged 8, its a wonderful way to learn history. 
Pam
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I have just realised I could ask on the begginers site
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9077
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Pam
I would ask the specific question. I would imagine they can be sourced at record office level, family history libraries for the area etc. Hopefully someone with knowledge of this area can advice you
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I am joining the Edmonton local family history group. Everything is by snail mail but it may be helpful trying to access records. The electoral role is in the British Library, but irritatingly they are incomplete for the 1930's, and patchy before the 40's.
Hugh Augusts died of hydrocephalis, it must have been acquired probably through infection or possibly a head injury. Its a most unpleasant death as it produces horrid symptoms and he would have felt very ill, and it is painful. It can be treated nowadays. He had been ill for a month. Poor kid.
Thomas Bryson is named as the father, with Margaret as married, and Thomas is recorded as a shawl manufacturer. Is this likely to be the Paisley shawl, among others, I think were popular in the Victorian era? Or didn't they come from there?
Pam
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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After a a gap of a few months I have finally sent away for Thomas Brysons death certificate. I have been moving house. It will be interesting to see what killed him.....if its a 'gastric disorder' then we are really none the wiser!
I have also been sent a picture of his brother in Magilligan, he looks almost human! Unfortunately I have tried posting it but It says the file is too large, I dont know where I am going wrong
Pam
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9077
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Hi Pam
Hope the house move went well
Let's see what Thomas' death cert states (this is Thomas Snr. I assume).
On the issue of the file size for the photo, I'm rubbish at these things  You could ask the question on the photo restoration board here on RC and get some advice on posting here on this post perhaps. Is the photo that of Hugh the Rev.?
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Yes it is.
I'm working on the technicalities re photo. I dont tihink its a restoration issue simply that the original has got light shining on it from their camera.
Pam
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I have at long last got Thomas Bryson Butlers death certificate.
He has the most peculiar diagnosis
'nervous exhaustion leading to failure of the circulation'
I have been teaching psychiatry all my life and I have never heard anything like it!
The nearest we have today is severe stress/ anxiety depression.
Why on earth did he suddenly decide to marry his long term girlfiend just a few months before his death? I was expecting a diagnosis like consumption or cancer.
Its most odd, perhaps he was a workaholic, had financial problems or whatever I just dont know.
I suppose he could have been killed by his medication!
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snootycat
RootsChat Member
Posts: 130
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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My friend, who is a pharmacologist reckons I should see if there was an inquest. I have no idea how on earth to find out! I will ask about 
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9077
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I am not sure what the official procedures were in Ireland, might be worth asking on the Irish board for this. Scotland for example has the Procurator Fiscal Office who would have dealt with anything like this...Ireland
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Magilligan_Presbyterian_church_copyright_Kenneth_Allen.jpg