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Topic: 1851 Census please (Read 262 times)
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Suzy W
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 379
C.M Merricks before coming to NZ
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Hello
I am needing the census for Edward and Sarah Pentecost for 1851. They came to New Zealand in 1853, so I think we should be safe to say they will show up on the census with their 5 children.
Regards
Suzy W
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Merricks/Merrick of Stafford, Tew family of Leciestershire, Voss/Vause Family of Stafford and Crick Northampton, Whitaker family of Baildon, Guiseley Yorkshire,
Lyall family of Dundee Scotland, Watkins of London, Shocklidge family of Stafford,
Potentier family from Yorkshire and France, Fairbrother family of Sussex, Hickland of Ireland, Davey family of Somerset
Keyland of Ireland
Davey of Sommerset
Heslip of New Zealand
Pentecost of Surrey
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Suzy W
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 379
C.M Merricks before coming to NZ
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Edward Pentecost born 1800 Peckham, Sarah Pentecost nee Amery born abt 1803, but been unable to find birth place.
Children-:
Sarah, she may of just married in 1851 to Robert Watkins
William born 1835
Phillip born 1837
Richard born 1839
Samuel abt 1842
All born in Surrey.
Regards
Suzy W
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Merricks/Merrick of Stafford, Tew family of Leciestershire, Voss/Vause Family of Stafford and Crick Northampton, Whitaker family of Baildon, Guiseley Yorkshire,
Lyall family of Dundee Scotland, Watkins of London, Shocklidge family of Stafford,
Potentier family from Yorkshire and France, Fairbrother family of Sussex, Hickland of Ireland, Davey family of Somerset
Keyland of Ireland
Davey of Sommerset
Heslip of New Zealand
Pentecost of Surrey
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bikermickau
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 452
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I think I have found your Robert Watkins b-abt1826 and wife Sarah b-abt1832 at Camberwell, Surrey, England
There's a Martha Watkins listed in the index as in the same household, she is actually the head of the next household whom may be Robert's parents and siblings
Both households at 8 Winchester Place (I think thats the correct spelling)
I have located the Pentecost family 1841, still trying to find them 1851
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Jeffs - Northamptonshire to Leicestershire to Queensland, Australia
Lewis - Gloucestershire to NSW & Queensland, Australia
Mary Jones, Daughter of James and Eliza - born abt 1864 Staffordshire, married 1883 London to Queensland, Australia
Dorans - Ireland to Scotland to Queensland, Australia
Reedy - Ireland to NSW & Queensland, Australia
Bradbury (False name?) - Oxfordshire to Queensland, Australia
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bikermickau
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 452
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1851 father indexed as Edmund Pembrook on Ancestry (looking at the image I see Edward Pentecost).
Camberwell, Surrey
Class HO107 Piece 1582 Folio Page 2
Pentecost
Edward Head Married 45 or 48 Dairyman Peckham, Surrey
Sarah Wife Married 45 Climary or Climing?, Devon
William Son 16 Briston?, Surrey
Phillip Son 14 Briston?, Surrey
Richard Son 12 Briston?, Surrey
Samuel is NOT in the household
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Jeffs - Northamptonshire to Leicestershire to Queensland, Australia
Lewis - Gloucestershire to NSW & Queensland, Australia
Mary Jones, Daughter of James and Eliza - born abt 1864 Staffordshire, married 1883 London to Queensland, Australia
Dorans - Ireland to Scotland to Queensland, Australia
Reedy - Ireland to NSW & Queensland, Australia
Bradbury (False name?) - Oxfordshire to Queensland, Australia
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Suzy W
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 379
C.M Merricks before coming to NZ
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Looks as if Edward did not know his age, he was born 1800 so he should be 51.
Where in England would Climary or Climing be? There was a reference on the I.G.I to a Sarah Amery being born in Yorkshire about the same time, would there be a Climary in that area?
Where would Samuel be? That is a mystrey.
Thanks
Suzy W
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Merricks/Merrick of Stafford, Tew family of Leciestershire, Voss/Vause Family of Stafford and Crick Northampton, Whitaker family of Baildon, Guiseley Yorkshire,
Lyall family of Dundee Scotland, Watkins of London, Shocklidge family of Stafford,
Potentier family from Yorkshire and France, Fairbrother family of Sussex, Hickland of Ireland, Davey family of Somerset
Keyland of Ireland
Davey of Sommerset
Heslip of New Zealand
Pentecost of Surrey
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Valda
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9744
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Hi
The 1851 census gives the birthplace of the three children as Brixton (Lambeth). The county of Devon is in the south west of England and Yorkshire is in the north east so almost as far apart as you can get. Many Devon parishes are not indexed on the IGI. There isn't a parish called Climmy in Devon, but then it might be a hamlet within a parish (as Peckham was a hamlet within the parish of Camberwell), or the census enumerator was doing the best he could to spell the place name with someone who was giving the name with a strong Devon accent.
The family in 1841
1841 census HO107 1051/5 folio 52
Wells Cottages Crab ? Road Hamlet of Peckham Camberwell
Edward Pentecost 35 Milkman
Sarah Pentecost 35
Sarah Pentecost 9
William Pentecost 6
Philip Pentecost 4
Richard Pentecost 2
All born Surrey (unreliable on the 1841 census) adult ages on the 1841 census, those over 15, ususally rounded down to the nearest 5.
From the censuses there certainly was an Amery family in the Southwark area of Surrey from Devon. These were an Amery family from Chulmleigh in Devon (not indexed by the IGI) who it appears moved to Newington (Southwark) Surrey and one at least of their children emigrated to Australia. Though this family had a daughter Sarah of about the right age they cannot be the direct family of Sarah who married Edward Pentecost as their daughter married Charles Tickener.
It may just be a coincidence that this Amery family was living in the area as many families were attracted to the London area. However if Sarah was a niece of the family it may explain her presence in the area as these Amerys had arrived in Newington (Southwark) by circa 1826 and Sarah married Edward Pentecost in Southwark in 1830.
This website gives more information about the Amerys of Chulmleigh.
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=pilchard&id=I1615
Name: John AMERY
circa 1780 - 1861
Eizabeth RATTENBURY
circa 1782
Children
Ann AMERY b: 1826 in Newington Surrey
Caroline AMERY b: 1807 in Chulmleigh Devon
Eliza AMERY b: 1823 in Chulmleigh Devon
James AMERY b: 1824 in Chulmleigh Devon
John AMERY b: 1812 in Chulmleigh Devon
Phillip AMERY b: 1816 in Chulmleigh Devon
Samuel AMERY b: 1821 in Chulmleigh Devon
Sarah AMERY b: 1804 in Chulmleigh Devon
William AMERY b: 1810 in Chulmleigh Devon
1851 census HO107 1567 folio 448
Rutland House Walworth Common Newington Surrey
John Amery 70 Head Married Builder employing 7 men Chulmleigh Devon
Elizabeth Amery 68 Wife Married Exmouth Devon
Anne Amery 24 Daughter Newington Surrey
Eliza Hewes 28 Married Annuitant Chulmleigh Devon
Sarah A. Kitchener 6 Granddaughter Barton Beds
plus one visitor
SARAH ANN KITCHENER
Christening: 26 JAN 1845 Barton In The Clay, Bedford
Father: CHARLES KITCHENER
Mother: SARAH
Marriages Jun 1841
AMERY Sarah Bethnal Gn 2 3
Kitchener Charles Bethnal Gn 2 3
If Sarah and Edward Pentecost were following traditional naming patterns their first son was named for his paternal grandfather and their second son was named for his maternal grandfather. The tree on Rootsweb does show that John Amery had a younger brother called Phillip. and this record indicates that Phillip survived and was married and living in Chulmleigh circa 1803.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/records.aspx?cat=027-4678a&cid=-1&Gsm=2008-06-18#-1
Payment to Mary wife of Philip Amery of Chulmleigh, substitute for Henry Harder of Stokeinteighhead 4678 A/PO 20/14 1803
There were other Amerys from Chulmleigh in the London area. Philip Amery aged 57, a master bricklayer employing 5 men was in Clerkenwell Middlesex (across the river Thames) on the 1851 census and Philip Amery aged 50 a carpenter was in Pancras Middlesex.
Who were the witnesses on Sarah's marriage to Edward Pentecost?
Regards
Valda
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Suzy W
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 379
C.M Merricks before coming to NZ
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That is a lot to take in, thank you.
Sorry do not have witness for marriage, all I know is that they married 1830 in Christchurch, Southwark, England.
Even the death notice here gave no clues, just that Sarah died at the age of 80 in 1883 and native to England, same with her husband Edward Pentecost, but at least we do know he came from Surrey thanks to the census.
Would Sarahs birth place be Climping which is a small village on the South Coast of Surrey? If so how can one find records for her?
Suzy W
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Logged
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Merricks/Merrick of Stafford, Tew family of Leciestershire, Voss/Vause Family of Stafford and Crick Northampton, Whitaker family of Baildon, Guiseley Yorkshire,
Lyall family of Dundee Scotland, Watkins of London, Shocklidge family of Stafford,
Potentier family from Yorkshire and France, Fairbrother family of Sussex, Hickland of Ireland, Davey family of Somerset
Keyland of Ireland
Davey of Sommerset
Heslip of New Zealand
Pentecost of Surrey
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Valda
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9744
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Hi Suzy
Sarah gave her place of birth as the county of Devon. It is quite clearly written. Please look at this map for English counties
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/Britain.html
Devon is in the south west of England. Surrey is in the south east of England. Surrey does not have a coastline. The north part of the old county of Surrey boarders onto the river Thames. This northern part of Surrey is now completely swallowed up by London which also has also completely absorbed Middlesex north of the river Thames and some bits of Kent and Essex. Basically your family in Southwark and Camberwell in the 1840s would now, if there today, be living in south London.
Wherever Sarah was born you have to accept as a starting point that it was in the county of Devon because that is what is clearly stated on the census.
Sarah's birthplace in Devon is written on the 1851 census as Climmy. 1851 is a time before universal literacy. Sarah may not be able to write let alone spell. She tells the census enumerator in a strong Devon accent where she was born. He hasn't a clue about places in Devon and writes down a phonetic spelling of what he hears. Or there is some level of literacy in the household and Edward writes out the individual household schedule for the census enumerator to copy into his book. He asks Sarah her birthplace and because he hasn't a clue from her Devon pronounciation and also isn't good at spelling in a time when words where not standardised in their spelling did the best he could to write it. Sarah could probably read but if she could write at all she probably didn't get much practice at it, so she was not likely to beable to correct what Edward has written. The census enumerator copying it into his book may or may not have copied it correctly depending on how well a writer Edward was. All of this means you have to be flexible when looking at how place names are written on censuses. Neither Edward or the census enumerator may ever have visited Devon and may have known as much as you do about the county and the places there.
You can hear a Devon accent hear
http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/content/articles/2008/02/13/devon_dialect_az_feature.shtml
Many places in England are not pronounced as they are spelt. To be frank if it does turn out that Sarah was born in Chulmleigh in Devon I must admit I don't know how exactly how that place is pronounced locally.
What you have in the areas close by to where Sarah was living in the 1830s and the 1840s in metropolitan Surrey - Southwark, Lambeth and Camberwell, are other Amerys mostly in the Southwark area who were born in Chulmleigh Devon. Phillip is a name that occurs in this Amery family. Phillip is a more unusual name. Sarah and Edward named their second son with that name. Traditional English naming patterns meant that second sons were named for their mother's father. If that was the case and Edward and Sarah were naming their sons in the traditional pattern then Sarah's father would have been called Phillip Amery.
Sarah's marriage in Southwark may have at least one Amery as a witness which might help though still is unlikely to prove a/the connection to the Southwark Amerys.
You can search for 'Climpings' in the county of Sussex and similar named places in the county of Yorkshire but actually you need to be looking at Devon. If Chulmleigh is in the frame no matter how badly it was spelt on the 1851 census it is still at this point a possible lead then there should be a Sarah Amery baptised in the parish register of about the right age possibly with a father called Philip. If you eliminate Chulmleigh you need to begin to look for other possible places that 'Climmy' could be - but in Devon otherwise you are ignoring the evidence of the 1851 census.
See this website for parishes in Devon
http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/indexpars.html
Regards
Valda
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Suzy W
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 379
C.M Merricks before coming to NZ
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Thanks Valda.
I found a small cluster of Amery in Devon including a Phillip, Sarah, Richard and William, all the names of my concerned family. The dates seem to fit well, 1770's.
The only problem is Phillip Amery, the only marriage that shows on the I.G.I is to a Isabella Roberts in London, if this is the case Phillip would of only been 17 or 18 years old when married, unless he was christened latter in life. But no records of my Sarah Amery being born to Phillip and Isabella or any other children.
So there seems to be a gap in the I.G.I for my family.
Devon is a whole new area for me, a whole new learning curve.
Regards
Suzy W
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Logged
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Merricks/Merrick of Stafford, Tew family of Leciestershire, Voss/Vause Family of Stafford and Crick Northampton, Whitaker family of Baildon, Guiseley Yorkshire,
Lyall family of Dundee Scotland, Watkins of London, Shocklidge family of Stafford,
Potentier family from Yorkshire and France, Fairbrother family of Sussex, Hickland of Ireland, Davey family of Somerset
Keyland of Ireland
Davey of Sommerset
Heslip of New Zealand
Pentecost of Surrey
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Valda
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9744
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Hi Suzy
If Sarah Pentecost nee Amery's father was Philip Amery from Devon/Chulmleigh over 200 miles away from London in a time when travel was much slower, then you wouldn't expect him to marry many miles away in London and then return all the way to Devon for the birth of his daughter. There is no evidence that Sarah's father ever left Devon, only that Sarah did.
Devon has patchy coverage on the IGI. Hugh Wallis' website (slightly out of date) shows you the parishes covered and for what dates. No marriage coverage for Chulmleigh and baptism coverage only up to 1726 apart from the Independent chapel baptisms 1812-1837 where John and Elizabeth Amery baptised some of their children between 1814-1821. There are no baptisms for a Sarah Amery born circa 1803-1806 on the IGI for Devon - either John and Elizabeth's daughter or their potential niece Sarah the daughter perhaps of Philip. If these baptisms exist you would need to search the parish register for Chulmleigh.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountyDevon_(A-M).htm#C
Devon Family History Society has a county wide marriage index that goes back to 1754
http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/indexes.htm#Marriages
but its baptism and burial indexes only start from 1813.
The Devon online Parish clerk
http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/OPCproject.html
has coverage of Chulmleigh back to 1725.
Burrington which the tree I linked to in my earlier post
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=pilchard&id=I1615
showed the connection between the Amery baptisms in Burrington and Chulmleigh Amerys. The two places are about 4 miles apart (Google maps). Burrington has coverage on the IGI of baptisms 1601-1812 and marriages 1601-1837.
Regards
Valda
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Suzy W
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 379
C.M Merricks before coming to NZ
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Thanks. Seems like a possible match with rootsweb. I have emailed the gentleman concerned, just have to wait and see if he replies.
Thank you so much for all your very detailed help. I am sure something will progress from this.
Cheers
Suzy W
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Merricks/Merrick of Stafford, Tew family of Leciestershire, Voss/Vause Family of Stafford and Crick Northampton, Whitaker family of Baildon, Guiseley Yorkshire,
Lyall family of Dundee Scotland, Watkins of London, Shocklidge family of Stafford,
Potentier family from Yorkshire and France, Fairbrother family of Sussex, Hickland of Ireland, Davey family of Somerset
Keyland of Ireland
Davey of Sommerset
Heslip of New Zealand
Pentecost of Surrey
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