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Topic: Cannot find my gt gt grandfather's birth (Read 534 times)
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emp1603
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 12
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Can anyone help as I'm stuck. I have my gt grandmother's birth certificate which shows she is born in 1881 in Devonport. Her name is Esther Mary Blood. Her mother is also Esther Mary and her father is James Henry Blood and is shown as a solder 1/13th regiment. They live at 5 Granby Ope Stoke Damerel. However the 1881 census shows the surname as Bendon. I then obtained the marriage certificate of James and Esther in 1873. This shows his occupation as a tailor and his father also James Blood as a tailor. The marriage took place in Kent which is where Esther Mary (nee Shelley) came from. This certificate shows he is full age (so 21yrs or older) Esther is still a minor. But I cannot find any censuses which shows either of the James Blood as a tailor, so cannot find birth. To make matters worse my gt grandmother's(Esther Mary b1881) marriage certificate shows her father's name as George Blood occupation Master Tailor. Any ideas
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celia
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6073
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Hello enp
Welcome to rootschat,I cannot help you with the census,but i had a look on the family search I.G.I
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/igi/search_IGI.asp
there was nothing on there either for the ancestors mentioned in Kent .However i did come across One only mention of a early record for a James Blood with a connection to Kent.To Early for yours but you never know  It is a submitted so proceed with caution 
James Blood Born 3rd November 1673 Chelmsford Middlesex Massachusetts
Died 17th May Concord Horsmonden Kent England.
Spouse was Abigale Sheeler
They married U.S.A in 1701 26th December.
Celia
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jorose
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4657
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By 1901 it seems that Esther was widowed (living in Lewisham with daughter Esther and another daughter, Rachel, b. Ireland).
If someone can access the 1891 for you, it seem kids Esther and Rachel are in one part of london and Esther the mother in another - no sign of the rest of the family.
It might be that James/George had changed his name around a bit (first son was George which might be a clue?). In 1873, what were the addresses/witness names?
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AMBLY
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4584
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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For Ref:
MARRIAGE: Woolwich Kent 1873 - James BLOOD and Esther SHELLEY.
Groom listed as "full age" and son of James BLOOD, Tailor
Bride listed as a "Minor"
BIRTH: Esther Mary BLOOD - born Mar Qtr 1881 in Stoke Damerel
Parents: Esther Mary nee SHELLEY and James Henry BLOOD, soldier 1/13thRegiment.
Address: 5 Granby Ope. Stoke Damerel ?
CENSUS 1881: At same address per 1881 Birth cert? Surname is BENDON.
Noting the Census also ages daughter Esther as age 1. When in fact she must be ony about 1 month old.
RG11 / Piece: 2209 / Folio: 127 / pg 50
The 1881 Census image, the surname could also be BLADON? The enumerator's writing a bit messy!
It shows James "BENDON" as 28, Soldier b Newton Abbot, Devon.
His wife Esther M is shown as 28, b Blackheath, Kent (1871 says Deptford?)
There are 2 other children born prior to Esther Mary in 1881:
George T? I? J? in Portsmouth, Hants abt 1874 - maybe registered in Portmouth as George T BLOOD 1874
Charles H in Newton Abbot, Devon abt 1878 - registered in ?? as ?? can't find?
MARRIAGE: 1907 or 1910 - Lewisham - not sure which of the two is yours?
Cert says Esther Mary BLOOD, shows her father as George BLOOD, Master Tailor
1907: Esther Mary BLOOD to William EDWARDS or George Thomas PRATT (other bride Rosina MORRISS)
1910: Esther M BLOOD to Frederick FIDGETT or (other groom not listed but believe it is Joseph J WEBB listed on FreeBMD also but page number not clearly read) (other bride is Edith PICKETT) 1d 2300
1891: 96a Esplanade Terrace - Lewisham
Lodger: Esther M BLOOD 35, unmarried, Laundrymaid, b Lewisham Kent
On her own Schedule. The rest of the house at 96 Esplanade is occupied by the family of General labourer, David COLE b Essex( and his Sussex b wife Julia)
1891: North Surrey District School - Penge, London
Pauper Inmate: Esther BLOOD 8, b Lewisham Kent
RG12 / Piece: 600 / Folio 82 / Page 4
1891: North Surrey District School - Penge, London
Pauper Inmate: Rachel BLOOD 7, b Lewisham Kent
RG12 / Piece: 600 / Folio 82 / Page 9
1901: 79 Brookdale Road, Lewisham
RG13 / Piece: 553 / Folio: 16 / Page: 23
Esther M BLOOD 45, widow, Laundress, b Lewisham
On her own schedule, occupying 3 rooms at that address.
A family of GRAY (b Poplar and Surrey, occupy 4 other rooms at same address)
1901: 6 Wearside Road - Lewisham
Servant: Esther BLOOD 20, single, general Servant Domestic, b Devonport, Devon
In household of Walter H THOMPSON and family
RG13 / Piece: 554 / Folio: 25 / Page: 2
1901: 140 Court Hill Road, LewishamServant: Rachel V BLOOD 17, single, b Ireland
in household of Chas B HALL & wife and their very large family! of 13 children!
RG13 / Piece: 549 / Folio: 122 / Page: 6
Can't immediately see the two BLOOD brothers, George and Charles in 1891 or 1901.
Cheers
AMBLY
added:
So the 1910 marriage appears to be the mother, Esther Mary BLOOD nee SHELLEY marrying again?
Census 1911 indexes an Esther Mary WEBB in Lewisham age 55 (b abt 1856) who is living in Lewisham and was married in 1910. Her husband is Joseph James WEBB, same age.
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« Last Edit: Sunday 07 June 09 11:56 UTC (UK) by AMBLY »
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emp1603
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 12
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Many thanks for your reply. Most of the information you supplied fits in completely with my records and verification (i.e marriage/birth certificates). The one piece of info you added also fits with a name on the marriage certificate of Esther Mary Blood to George Pratt (my gt grandfather). The marriage is witnessed by a Clara Olivia Webb Blood. So it looks like Esther Mary senior did marry Joseph James Webb in 1910.
When Esther & Rachel were in the North Surry School listed as paupers Charles is on vessels not sure if George is the 17 yr old in Nottingham.
When you mentioned Esther M Blood 1891 you say on her own schedule am I am to ask where you obtain this info from? New to this so not sure if I can ask?
It is the birth certificate of James Blood I am trying to find and although the 1881 census says birth place Newton Abbot I haven't had any luck finding anything. Same for one of the boys Charles. Thanks for your time, much appreciated.
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emp1603
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 12
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Jorose
The marriage certificate only lists the addres as St Paul Charlton which is the parish. The witnesses are S Wood and Alice Shelley, Esther's sister. Thanks for trying to help.
Main piece I am searching or trying to, is the birth of James Blood because although 1881 census shows Newton Abbot as his birth place cannot find anything. Once again many thanks
Regards
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emp1603
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 12
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Celia
The only connection I can find with James Blood to Kent is his marriage to Esther Mary nee Shelley as she lived in the Lewisham/Blackheath area in Kent. According to the 1881 census his birth place is Newton Abbot in Devon but cannot find anything. His birth is circa 1852 going on censuses/marriage certificate. Thanks for trying and if you do find anything would love to hear from you.
Regards
emp
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AMBLY
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4584
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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Hi emp
A potted 'history.....
The information we see in the Census Enumerator's books - are taken from individual "Household Schedules" which were given to each householder just prior to Census night to fill in and to return to/be collected by the enumerator. Sometimes the enumerator, or a neighbour/friend etc would fill in the schedule if the householder was illiterate or was not at home to hand over the Schedule. Each Schedule in the enumerator's walk had a unique ID number. The Enumerator would then transcribe the information from the schedules into his book, the one we get to see (so, it's from this point that transcription errors, omission, misreads, etc can occur!). We no longer have the actual schedules - they were destroyed.
Read more here:
http://www.censusuk.co.uk/history.htm
In the first column of the Census sheets in the Enumerator's books, is written the Hosuehold Schedule's number. This is how we know what is a household. Often, multiple Households occupy one dwelling. Sometimes they are related. Sometime not. In theory, each household should be headed by a "Head of Household".
In the case of Esther M BLOOD snr in 1891 & 1901 she is in the same house as other people. In both cases she is on her own Schedule. She also does not appear to share any similarity with the families (which is why I checked the places of birth for the others - if either one of the couple heading the other family had been born in the same place as Esther, it may be a clue they were actually related).
In the 1891, Esther is listed as a lodger (even though, being alone on her own Schedule she should be a "Head"). This means she probably was Lodging with the principal tenants of the house but was unrelated to them.
In the 1901, Esther is listed as "Head" of her own schedule sharing what appears to be half a dwelling house with another family. I thought it odd, that she was occupying 3 rooms (this information, if occupying less than 5 rooms, is also provided in a column in the census) for this is quite a princely number of rooms considering she was apparently alone & clearly not a woman of any means at all (and the fact she was working as a Laundress supports that).
The reason is clear....it appears she was probably living with Mr WEBB a good few years before they got married - approx 16 or 17 years earlier at least by the looks of it. And the 3 rooms were probably occupied by she, he and their daughter Clara. Except that, on Census night 1901 he and Clara were elsewhere:
1901: 8 Scrooby Street, Lewisham, London (Catford Ward)
RG13 / Piece: 553 / Folio: 63 / Page: 12
Head: Joseph WEBB 69, Housepainter, b Shoreditch
Wife: Clara O WEBB 69, b Hackney
Son: Joseph J WEBB 45, single, House Painter, b Hackney
Grandchild: Clara O WEBB 8, b Lewisham
With this information, I'd be wondering why wait until 1910 to marry - and could it be because the mysterious James BLOOD was known to be still alive until shortly before that time, or he was officially missing from approx 1903 (7 years before the re-marriage of Esther to Mr WEBB).
You say the son Charles H BLOOD is on Vessels in 1891? Could ask what was listed as his place of birth?
BIRTH : Clara Olivia BLOOD - Lewisham - Jun Qtr 1893, 1d, pg 1138
Cheers
AMBLY
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modem
RootsChat Member
Posts: 110
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Could he have been registered under his mother's maiden name for some reason?
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winston
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2772
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HI
I have sent you Personal message to Emp1603 as the info I am about to post can't be seen on Roots due to copyright Issues
Wendy
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Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBlakeley in Batley West Yorks Turner in Hanging Heaton West Yorkshire Dann last known area Soothill West Yorks Hirst in Hanging heaton W Yorks Moss in Morley and Leeds Parker in Morley W Yorks Parker in Hull E Yorks Tilburns in Morley W Yorks |
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emp1603
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 12
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Ambly
Thanks for your info. I will have a look at the site you mentioned. George the son's birth is shown as Newton Abbot same as his father James (or George) which is in Kent. Esther M Blood must have known he was about in 1907 as he is listed on Esther M (the daughter's) marriage certificate of which I have a copy but as I can't understand why he has his name as George when her birth certificate says James? I know from my mum there was talk of a half sister but she thought is was Rachael but it may be when she was told about as a little girl she got confused and it was actually Clara who was the half sister. Thanks for all your help. Still stuck with the problem of finding James Blood's birth info so I might have been able to track him through the other censuses.
Regards Elaine
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emp1603
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 12
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi modem
According to James marriage certificate to Esther M Blood his father's name is also James Blood. The 1881 census shows his birth place as Newton Abbot, Devon but can't find anything in the indexes. Have to see if I can find a marriage of James Blood (senior) in the Newton Abbot area.
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angelfish58
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 334
Who is Norman Carne & why do we have his photo?
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The first FreeBMD entry for Blood in Devon is for William Richard Blood born DecQ1879 StokeD 5b (it looks like 326 on the image) followed by by his death in the same quarter (DecQ 1879 StokeD 5b 242), as Esthers birth is the next entry this might be a brother so it might be interesting to get his certs and see what they say.
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Watson, Snowball, Pyburn, Heppell, Ferry, Holmes, Clennett, Co.Duham & Northumberland
Stockton, Watson N. Yorks
Brown & Anstey, Devon
Challnor/Challoner, Moore, Mansell, Shropshire
Davies or David, Glamorgan
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jorose
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4657
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The Irish registration indexes do show a Rachel Blood born there in 1883 (http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/ ), who could have been the "half" sister your mother remembered. The split between James and Esther probably happened sometime 1883-1891? Maybe earlier
Probably the "George" on the marriage certificate was a mistake as Esther Jr may not have known/remembered her father very well, and she did have a brother named George.
Probably the best thing to do would be to try and look at army records. Best to actually go to the NA as there are issues with exactly what his name was - but you do have his regiment (I think 1/13th = 13th Light Infantry = Somerset Light Infantry, but army records are not my speciality so best to doublecheck that). If you couldn't find his discharge papers you might still be able to track him in muster rolls etc.
The other set of records, probably at the LMA, would be the records for the school that Esther Jr and Rachel were at in 1891. It would be useful to know when they entered the school as that will give you some more information about the family's whereabouts between 1881 (1883?) and 1891. If you're very lucky there might be some information about family circumstances/location of parents.
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emp1603
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 12
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks Jorose will have a go using your suggestions.
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