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Topic: Help please to find my great grandfather before 1881 (Read 518 times)
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YvonneR
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 708
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Hi everyone
I really need some help with a major brick wall regarding George Towner, my great grandfather
The census details that I have are:
1901 Household members, living at 73 Gleave Road, Selly Oak, Birmingham (civil parish Northfield, Worcestershire)
Head, George Towner, age 50
Wife, Louisa, age 50
Children
Ada, age 20
Harry Towner 18 (my grandfather)
Albert, age 15
William, age 13
Leah, age 10
Gertrude, age 5
All of the family born Birmingham, Warwickshire
Lodger, Arthur Hall, age 21, born Herefordshire (married Ada in 1901)
RG13
Piece 2809
Folio 8
Page 8
1891 Household members, living at 8 Prospect Road, Moseley, Birmingham (civil parish Birmingham, Warwickshire)
No surname transcribed in index
All born Birmingham, Warwickshire
George, age 37
Louisa, age 40
Children
Thomas, age 19
Florine, age 17
George, age 12
Adeline, age 10
Albert, age 5
William, age 3
Leah, age 6 months
my grandfather Harry born 12 March 1883 is not in the household and I haven't found him in this census
RG12
Piece 2399
Folio 35
Page 26
1881 Household members, living at 2 court 7 House, Brass Street, Aston, Birmingham
All born Birmingham
George, age 24
Louisa, age 28
Children
Thomas, age 11
Florence, age 6
George, age 2
Boarder George Butcher, age 33
RG11
Piece 2995
Folio 62
Page 28
George's age varies by six years over the three census and I know that this is not unusual but the marriage certificate in 1880 shows his age as 22.
The certificate details are:
Married at St Stephens Church, Birmingham, Warwickshire, 7th November 1880
George Towner, age 22, Batchelor, Machine Maker, Residence Brass Street, Father: John Towner occupation Carpenter
Louisa Baines, age 28, Spinster, Residence Brass Street, Father: John Baines occupation Plumber
Witnesses: John Poole, Matilda Rick.
My problem is whose children are the three with them in 1881 (and 1891) ? ? ?  I cannot find birth index entries under Towner or Baines or varients. There is an extracted baptism entry in the IGI for Florence in 1880.
Also I cannot find a birth entry for George Towner, nor can I find him in 1871 or 1861. In fact I cannot find a John Towner (father) either.
There is a James Turner and family in Birmingham at the time, he was born Oxfordshire and occupation Carpenter and I have tried to find a connection. Traced him back through the census and in 1841 he has a brother John and their father Thomas was a Carpenter but I cannot make a connection as I can't find the brother John after 1851 to eliminate him from my search.
It all feels somehow strange  ....so please, please can someone help or give me some ideas as I am brain whacked with this!  
Thanks for reading this major monologue
Any help at all will be very much appreciated
Best wishes
Yvonne
Added: Sorry should have said...to add to my feeling of strangeness, I cannot find Louisa Baines born Birmingham in earlier census nor birth index! There is a Louisa Baines of about the right age born in Leicestershire and having a father John Baines but of course I cannot really make the connection at the moment.
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My family research Sheridan - Leitrim, Ireland, New York, USA, Birmingham, England Finnegan - Ireland, New York, USA Gilmartin - Leitrim, Ireland, New York, USA Cashal - Ireland, New York, USA Donnelly - Ireland Reilly - Ireland My husbands family research Robinson - Birmingham, England Turner - Birmingham, England Beresford - Birmingham, England Hall - Birmingham, England Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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rootgirl
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 7
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Have you tried the 1891 census, sometimes if people were out of the house at the time the censor called they weren't recorded?
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janan
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5860
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Hi Yvonne
I notice there is also a George Towner a sawyer born Greys Oxfordshire c1825 which seems to make the Rotherfield Greys family even more likely, but as you say it is making that link.
The only likely Thomas Towner born c1870 I can see in 1871 is son of a John Towner born c1844 Greys Oxon and lving in Rotherfield Greys. No sign of an Oxon born Thomas in 1881. So could John born 1844 be a possible brother to your mysterious George?
Will keep burrowing.
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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Annette7
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 673
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Whilst I have had no luck in finding them on earlier census I note that a John Towner bc.1825 died Mar. qtr. 1881 Birmingham. Can't find him on earlier census either but possibly he could be John Towner the carpenter and father of George.
Annette
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Scopes (One-Name Study - Worldwide) Suffolk - Grist, Knights, Bullenthorpe, Watcham Scotland - Spence, Horne, Cowan, Moffat London - Monk Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend. Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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lesleyhannah
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1075
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My ageing brain is probably not keeping up with all the facts here - so sorry if I'm being stupid, but could George and Harry be the same person? I've got a few people on my tree who were known as a name not on their birth certificate, and I've no idea why.
Lesley
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YvonneR
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 708
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Thank you all very much indeed for your responses, it is excellent to have some input into this side of my family. 
amber39, even though you have written a second message saying to ignore the first, I really do feel that you could be spot on and Louisa was possibly married before....I haven't found anything that matches yet but it is definitely something that needs a lot more research. Thank you
rootgirl, I have checked for Harry in the 1891 census as he could have been visiting relatives or friends etc., haven't found him yet but will continue the search....I appreciate your message very much
janan, I hadn't considered that, even though I had looked at that particular John and Thomas. It gives me another route to explore and I am so pleased to have someone else's views because it enables me to return to previous searches. Thank you for reminding me about this particular angle...
Annette7, I had seen that death index entry and I think to get the certificate is my next thing to do, to see what clues are available. I also found a marriage for a John Towner and Hannah Dent in 1846 and found the couple on the 1851 census living on Colmore Street, Birmingham. This had been filed away because I couldn't find them after that census.....but I will revisit it and see whether I should get the marriage certificate, it might have some clues and thank you very much for your help
lesleyhannah, you are absolutely right and I have searched for a "Towner" born Birmingham for George but there is only one in the time frame (William Thomas) and he is the son of the James Towner that I mentioned in my message. Regarding George and Harry, George is the father and Harry the son  but I have become very confused with the whole search so I can understand what you mean
It is back to the beginning for me in this search....I need to get some certificates even if it is to rule people out!
You are all brilliant and thank you for taking the time to help me out with this 
Very best wishes to you all
Yvonne
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My family research Sheridan - Leitrim, Ireland, New York, USA, Birmingham, England Finnegan - Ireland, New York, USA Gilmartin - Leitrim, Ireland, New York, USA Cashal - Ireland, New York, USA Donnelly - Ireland Reilly - Ireland My husbands family research Robinson - Birmingham, England Turner - Birmingham, England Beresford - Birmingham, England Hall - Birmingham, England Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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janan
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5860
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Yvonne
Let us know what you find out from the certificates
Jan
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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YvonneR
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 708
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I certainly will Jan have only ordered the death certificate for John Towner at the moment, should have it hopefully next thursday.
Best
Yvonne
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My family research Sheridan - Leitrim, Ireland, New York, USA, Birmingham, England Finnegan - Ireland, New York, USA Gilmartin - Leitrim, Ireland, New York, USA Cashal - Ireland, New York, USA Donnelly - Ireland Reilly - Ireland My husbands family research Robinson - Birmingham, England Turner - Birmingham, England Beresford - Birmingham, England Hall - Birmingham, England Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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YvonneR
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 708
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Hi Jan and everyone who has helped with this
On friday I ordered John Towner's death certificate online direct from Birmingham Register Office (will do this again for Birmingham certs in future as it has just arrived, whereas it is at least a week from GRO  )
Excellent news as this certificate confirms that this is my 2x great grandfather John Towner
John Towner, age 56, Carpenter
Died, 28th February 1881, Workhouse, Western Road
Cause of death, Bronchitis
Informant, George Towner Son, in attendance, 2 Court, Brass Street
This is the first time that I have had a family member associated with the workhouse, so this will be a new research for me.
I am not sure how to further my research at the moment as I just cannot find father or son in earlier census'
Will have to give it some thought and if anyone can come up with any ideas, I would be so grateful
Best wishes
Yvonne
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My family research Sheridan - Leitrim, Ireland, New York, USA, Birmingham, England Finnegan - Ireland, New York, USA Gilmartin - Leitrim, Ireland, New York, USA Cashal - Ireland, New York, USA Donnelly - Ireland Reilly - Ireland My husbands family research Robinson - Birmingham, England Turner - Birmingham, England Beresford - Birmingham, England Hall - Birmingham, England Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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janan
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5860
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That's fantastic 
One step in the right direction, the man exists so where the **** is he on censuses
I will continue looking
Jan
Re workhouses
This site is great
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~peter/workhouse/
and this one
http://www.institutions.org.uk/workhouses/
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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YvonneR
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 708
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Thanks for the links Jan It could provide a way of finding out about John if there are any records for the workhouse! ..and thanks loads for your help with the search
Yvonne
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My family research Sheridan - Leitrim, Ireland, New York, USA, Birmingham, England Finnegan - Ireland, New York, USA Gilmartin - Leitrim, Ireland, New York, USA Cashal - Ireland, New York, USA Donnelly - Ireland Reilly - Ireland My husbands family research Robinson - Birmingham, England Turner - Birmingham, England Beresford - Birmingham, England Hall - Birmingham, England Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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