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Topic: I'm now lost for a change (Read 588 times)
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Caz1960
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 64
my paternal grandfather, James Lyon Innes
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Can anyone help me on this one 
I have the copy of death certificate for my 2 x gt grandmum ..... died 1860, age stated as 43yrs - which I know could be wrong, but can find no trace of her birth in the OPR's.
She was born Agnes Lyon, Parents were William Lyon and Euphamia Lyon, nee Livingston. I have found all her siblings, including a Margaret, born 1827, which was when I reckoned my 2 x gt grandmum was born. As there is only Agnes as a name showing on the death certificate I wonder if Agnes and Margaret could be one and the same?
I thought I was doing well tracing the Lyon side but this one has me sinking further in my chair at every search.
Any help or suggestions would be much appreciated.
Thanks, Carole
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Innes, Portobello, Edinburgh
Higham, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire also England somewhere
McLaren, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire
Lindsay, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire
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Caz1960
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 64
my paternal grandfather, James Lyon Innes
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I know the grandparents William Livingston and Agnes Stanners (though that surname varies from Stanhouse to Stonner depending on who wrote it). The Agnes ties in, with her grandmother, but where is she on the OPR's or did they just sort of forget to register her birth lol.
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Innes, Portobello, Edinburgh
Higham, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire also England somewhere
McLaren, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire
Lindsay, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire
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tidybooks
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1397
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Caz1960,
Not heard of Agnes being same as Margaret, but on the following link, Aggie is pet name for both names,
http://www.rootschat.com/links/066x/
Tom
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Scotland - Buchanan, Thomson, Paterson, Stewart, Ritchie, Tracey
Ireland - Tracey, Conroy, Paterson.
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Caz1960
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 64
my paternal grandfather, James Lyon Innes
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Thanks Tom, just wish I knew for certain if Margaret and Agnes were one and the same.
I'm sliding towards them being same person, but why on her death cert is she down as Agnes, although I guess if she was known as that then my 2 x gt grandfather wouldn' t have known any different.
Think I need to go check on the OPR's and see if I can find their marriage reference as I don't think I've got that in amongst all my paperwork.
Carole
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Innes, Portobello, Edinburgh
Higham, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire also England somewhere
McLaren, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire
Lindsay, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire
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Caz1960
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 64
my paternal grandfather, James Lyon Innes
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Oh my giddy aunt, neither wonder my head is birling lol.
I just checked the 1851 Scottish Census, and find her:
Name: Agnes Innes, maiden surname Lyon
Age: 32
Her estimated birth year is 1819.
Everything tallies with the information given, but when I check OPR's on SP only one I can find born 1819 is Janet ....... 
Now I know that "Agnes" had a daughter, two weeks or so before she died, and the daughter was named Janet. Now wondering if Agnes is Janet ...... or is Agnes Margaret ...... guess if i could track down Margaret Lyon, or even Janet Lyons marriage then would know for sure.
As I say, reading the Census everything tallies, husbands name, childrens names, just no sign of a birth for an Agnes
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« Last Edit: Friday 01 May 09 18:21 UTC (UK) by Caz1960 »
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Innes, Portobello, Edinburgh
Higham, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire also England somewhere
McLaren, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire
Lindsay, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire
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KirstyG
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 948
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Carole
The IGI has Janet being Christened in 1819, that does not guarantee she was born that year (unless SP has more on their records).
William Lyon and Euphemia Livingstone married in St Cuthberts, Ed. in 1816, and first child shows as christened Duddingston 1819 (Janet).
There is certainly time for them to have had another child (before her?) Is it possible that Agnes could have been born in a different parish (whose records are incomplete?) before they moved, and the subsequent children are all recorded in Duddingston?
The best way to find her birth is probably to find every refence made to her age, so Census records, Marriage certificate, Death certificate, and any 1855 paperwork!!
Have you conclusively found Agnes in any census records so far?
Kirsty
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Galloway, Landers, Lindsay, Gillespie, Irvine
Erskine, McAdam, Hawthorn
Robertson, Duncan, Edmonstone, Black
Anderson, Nicholson, Crombie, MacDonald
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KirstyG
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 948
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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There was a possible entry for the family of William and Euphemia on Freecen in the 1841 census in Inveresk (Newbigging) but the ages of the girls are all out by about 3/4 years, although they do appear in the same order as the births on the IGI.
I had discounted it based on the discrepancy in ages, although seeing that Agnes married in Inveresk with Musselburgh in 1840 it does make me wonder...
Especially as she and new husband William appear to be living 3 doors down...
Maybe lying about their age ran in the family?
Kirsty
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Galloway, Landers, Lindsay, Gillespie, Irvine
Erskine, McAdam, Hawthorn
Robertson, Duncan, Edmonstone, Black
Anderson, Nicholson, Crombie, MacDonald
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Caz1960
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 64
my paternal grandfather, James Lyon Innes
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Hi Kirsty,
Found Agnes Innes, aged 20, married to William Innes also aged 20 in 1841 Census, born about 1821 and living in Newbigging in Musselburgh. Jump to 1851 Census and Agnes and William are living in Portobello at Wilsons Park, age of Agnes given as 32, estimated birth year about 1819 At that time they had 4 children, and that's the only two census i have checked, since Agnes died in 1860, no point in checking that one.
Regarding her being born in different parish, I think I have searched on SP under all districts for an Agnes Lyon from 1815 onwards and not a sign of her. It's now bugging me, but then again a great aunt did the same, born under one name, married under another, legged it to USA with her hubby and 2 kids under yet another of her given names, and died under another - they sure don't make it easy for us do they lol.
Carole
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Innes, Portobello, Edinburgh
Higham, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire also England somewhere
McLaren, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire
Lindsay, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire
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Caz1960
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 64
my paternal grandfather, James Lyon Innes
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Still no luck in finding a birth for Agnes OR her brother Alexander
Yes, I was checking my file and actually thought I had Alexander in with wrong family, but on checking his death cert his parents are also William and Euphamia and he is living with them on a couple of census records so I know he's the right one.
Any ideas where I could go next to try and solve this one?
Caz xx
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Innes, Portobello, Edinburgh
Higham, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire also England somewhere
McLaren, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire
Lindsay, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire
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KirstyG
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 948
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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You have to bear in mind that the 1841 census rounded adult ages to the nearest 5 years, so just because they were enumerated as 20 doesn't mean they actually were.
I think the arithmetic was wrong in your earlier posts. If she died in 1860 aged 43, then she would have been born in 1817, not 1827, so that matches up better with the age in the 1851 census.
Children of William and Euphemia (married 1816), all christened Duddingston (extracted IGI records)
Janet ch. 1819
Jean ch. 1821
Elizabeth ch. 1825
Margaret ch. 1827
James ch. 1829
John ch. 1834
Where do you think Alexander and Agnes should fit? IGI has submitted entries for a William Lyon 1832/1836 also but no Alexander.
I see he is in the 1841 census as 20, but again that was probably rounded.
Have you had any luck tracing Janet? If you can't find her after 1860 then maybe Janet/Agnes is the same person?
Kirsty
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Galloway, Landers, Lindsay, Gillespie, Irvine
Erskine, McAdam, Hawthorn
Robertson, Duncan, Edmonstone, Black
Anderson, Nicholson, Crombie, MacDonald
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Caz1960
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 64
my paternal grandfather, James Lyon Innes
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Hi Kirsty,
Sorry about arithmetic in earlierposts, think i was suffering fat finger syndrome when I typed them ... i did mean to put 1817 and not 1827 
As I say I have found the rest of the children, just not Alexander or Agnes, and going by ages on the copies of the Death Certificates, I would think that they would fit in as possibly the eldest children.
So far, no luck in tracing Janet, and the two entries for William in 1832/1836, I think the first William must have died as a child and William Number 2 was named after him.
I just found paperwork for a Janet Lyon, from OPR Marriages in 1845, the Banns for a marriage between her and a John O'Brien but whether this is the right Janet I am not sure. I am in contact with someone else researching the same line but she is as confused as I am as to why no trace of Alexander or Agnes.
According to the death certificates, Agnes died in 1860 from TB aged 43 and Alexander died in 1875 aged 61, no cause of death shown on Certificate, but there is an RCE saying he was run over by a train at Portobello Railway Station.
Think I may just have to carry on hunting and hope that something turns up on this pair.
Caz xx
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Logged
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Innes, Portobello, Edinburgh
Higham, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire also England somewhere
McLaren, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire
Lindsay, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire
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KirstyG
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 948
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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You could confirm if it is the right Janet by finding her death certificate which would hopefully have her parent's names as well as her husband's.
That would at least let you rule her out.
If the age on the death certificate for Alexander is correct then he would have been born around 1814, that's 2 years before his parents married. He might be registered under his mother's maiden name, although I think I searched for that already.
Kirsty
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Galloway, Landers, Lindsay, Gillespie, Irvine
Erskine, McAdam, Hawthorn
Robertson, Duncan, Edmonstone, Black
Anderson, Nicholson, Crombie, MacDonald
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Caz1960
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 64
my paternal grandfather, James Lyon Innes
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This is now starting to be like looking for a needle in a haystack
I think the marriage I found for Janet Lyon is for a cousin of my lot, as I have just found a death for a Janet Lyon, 30th June, 1823, daughter of William Lyon in Portobello, which would tie in as I know they moved to Portobello from Musselburgh.
Still no sign of Alexander or Agnes though, can't even find anything in Newspaper Archives relating to Alexander's death in 1875, resulting from being hit by a Train on Portobello Railway, maybe it wasn't deemed newsworthy at the time.
And the search goes on.
Caz xx
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Innes, Portobello, Edinburgh
Higham, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire also England somewhere
McLaren, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire
Lindsay, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire
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Caz1960
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 64
my paternal grandfather, James Lyon Innes
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I think I have given up with Agnes and Alexander, I've moved mountains, turned over stones and still coming up a big fat zero. They were obviously born but where there birth records are is beyond me.
Perhaps if I stop looking they will turn up 
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Innes, Portobello, Edinburgh
Higham, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire also England somewhere
McLaren, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire
Lindsay, Menstrie, Clackmannanshire
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