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Topic: Wheatsheaf Pub Wokingham Berks (Read 423 times)
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Abiam
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1368
My "garden" by Abiam
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Where can I look to find out if this was the pub John and Mary Wise were running in 1841?
I have found them on the 1841 census Ho107 28 1613 20
John Wise and wife Mary living with 4 young people not obviously related (18 to 26) he has the occupation as Innkeeper. The young people possibly bar staff and/or boarders?
On Googling I found the Wheatsheaf pub at 14/15 Market Place, Wokingham.
By 1851 HO107 1692 267 4
John is a widower aged 70 living at Thorn Street Reading and is a former brewery *** receiving parochial relief.
I have not found his death as yet.
Any ideas, please?
Abiam
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Genealogists never die! They just undertake to join their ancestors!
DOBSON,Berks, Wilts.DOPSON, Fyfield, Wilts
SMITH, WEBB, Little Gransden, Gamlingay, Cambs
WEBB, Hatley St George, Hunts
HUNT, Wanborough, Swindon, Wilts
TUBB, Hungerford, Berks, EGERTON, Highworth, Wilts
WISE, South Australia, WISE, Fawley, Berks
WISE, Bray, Binfield, Berks
WYSE, Wise, Maidenhead, Berks
VINCE, VINCENT, St Mary Bourne, Hants, Bucks, Berks
TUCKWELL ANYWHERE!
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behindthefrogs
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4245
EDLIN
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Is there any particular reason why you identified the Wheatsheaf as the public house that he occupied. As he was described as an Inn Keeper I would have thought that the Rose or the Bush which were coaching inns in the Market Place was much more likely. I see that there is also a publican identified in the 1841 census and I would have thought he was more likely to have been running the Wheatsheaf.
I have not in my brief check been able to confirm that the Wheatsheaf existed in 1840. The Rose at that time occupied the site (now the Superdrugs shop) alongside that occupied by the Bush, which at the end of the last century was converted to a shopping arcade called Bush Walk. In 1844 the Rose moved across the Market Place to be called the New Rose with the original being called the Old Rose. At some point the Old Rose and the Bush merged but I am not sure when. The story is actually a lot more complicated as it involved the rivalry between the keepers of two Inns and the various coaches which used them.
Confusingly the Rose still occupies the new site but is now called the Olde Rose.
David
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Living in Berkshire. From Northampton & Milton Keynes DETAILS OF THE FOLLOWING NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley. Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Abiam
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1368
My "garden" by Abiam
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Hi,
I have now found John and wife Mary in 1840 Robsons, 1841 census, 1844 Pigots, 1847 Post Office and apart from the 1841 census they are all at the Rose, Market Place. Then the 1851 census is where it all goes wrong!
It says John was born in Aborfield and Mary in Wokingham.
'My' John Wise is on the 1851 as a widower so Mary is dead and he is living at 39 Thorn Street Reading and receiving Parochial relief. This census gives his birth place as Hanley but I and others read it as Fawley. Mary was born in Beenham Berkshire.
I have certain proof of his birth in Fawley with his parents and siblings.
Below is the website where I found out about the Rose.
http://deadpubs.co.uk/Berkshire/Wokingham/RoseHotel.shtml
I think I am trying a search too far!
Thank you for your help, David,
Abiam
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Logged
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Genealogists never die! They just undertake to join their ancestors!
DOBSON,Berks, Wilts.DOPSON, Fyfield, Wilts
SMITH, WEBB, Little Gransden, Gamlingay, Cambs
WEBB, Hatley St George, Hunts
HUNT, Wanborough, Swindon, Wilts
TUBB, Hungerford, Berks, EGERTON, Highworth, Wilts
WISE, South Australia, WISE, Fawley, Berks
WISE, Bray, Binfield, Berks
WYSE, Wise, Maidenhead, Berks
VINCE, VINCENT, St Mary Bourne, Hants, Bucks, Berks
TUCKWELL ANYWHERE!
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Abiam
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1368
My "garden" by Abiam
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As you say my data does look odd! I don't feel The Rose is 'my' John Wise although I have no actual proof that it is him on the 1851. I wonder if he just had a beer shop rather than being a publican and the 'Innkeeper' was wishful thinking.
This is a very difficult hunt!
I have very little to go on but am trying to follow through the children of George Wise and Ann Wernham who married in Suffolk in 1768. The children were born between 1770 and 18784 in Fawley Berkshire.
Elizabeth 1770
William 1771
James 1776
George 1778
John 1781
Lucy 1784
The only one we've managed to track down all the way is George who married in Winkfield and had six children and farmed in White Waltham.
Lucy the youngest daughter married James Carey in Oct 1815 according to the PRs and she became a widow a month later.
Obviously this time frame is very difficult to research as it's before 1837 and by the 1841 census they could all have died. And IGI have so little on Berkshire. I find Berkshire records so difficult as nearly everything is held at the BRO.
Any thoughts very welcome,
Abaim
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Logged
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Genealogists never die! They just undertake to join their ancestors!
DOBSON,Berks, Wilts.DOPSON, Fyfield, Wilts
SMITH, WEBB, Little Gransden, Gamlingay, Cambs
WEBB, Hatley St George, Hunts
HUNT, Wanborough, Swindon, Wilts
TUBB, Hungerford, Berks, EGERTON, Highworth, Wilts
WISE, South Australia, WISE, Fawley, Berks
WISE, Bray, Binfield, Berks
WYSE, Wise, Maidenhead, Berks
VINCE, VINCENT, St Mary Bourne, Hants, Bucks, Berks
TUCKWELL ANYWHERE!
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newburychap
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 749
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As you say my data does look odd! I don't feel The Rose is 'my' John Wise although I have no actual proof that it is him on the 1851. I wonder if he just had a beer shop rather than being a publican and the 'Innkeeper' was wishful thinking.
Whilst I cannot say which John Wise is your John Wise, I can say that a John (aged 68) and Mary (62) Wise were running the Rose Inn, Market Place, Wokingham in 1851 - HO107/1693 f191. A daughter Mary Ann Houlton (unmarried) is also there, working as a barmaid.
A John Wise died later in 1851 (Q4 Wokingham VI 207) leaving Mary to take on the licence.
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Currently researching: Newbury pubs & inns - the buildings, breweries and publican families. Member of Newbury District Field Club - www.ndfc.org.uk |
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Abiam
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1368
My "garden" by Abiam
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Thanks for your thoughts, Newburychap.
The main point that puts me off this being John is that it states on the '51 census that he was born in Aborfield and I know he was born in Fawley.
From the '51 census:
WISE, John Head Widower M 70 1781 Former Brewer.
Receiving Parish Relief born Fawley Berkshire.
Shouldn't it say victualer or licencee rather than former brewer? That is if he was the Innkeeper.
I hadn't found the death in '51 that you mention - it does say in Slaters that he was still the licencee in '52. But as that death was registered in Dec '51 probably the directories were already printed.
If I had a paid search done at Reading do you think it could give me proof that I have the right man? Is it likely that they would have records saying where he was born or references for him?
Or should I give up on this one? 
Abiam
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Logged
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Genealogists never die! They just undertake to join their ancestors!
DOBSON,Berks, Wilts.DOPSON, Fyfield, Wilts
SMITH, WEBB, Little Gransden, Gamlingay, Cambs
WEBB, Hatley St George, Hunts
HUNT, Wanborough, Swindon, Wilts
TUBB, Hungerford, Berks, EGERTON, Highworth, Wilts
WISE, South Australia, WISE, Fawley, Berks
WISE, Bray, Binfield, Berks
WYSE, Wise, Maidenhead, Berks
VINCE, VINCENT, St Mary Bourne, Hants, Bucks, Berks
TUCKWELL ANYWHERE!
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behindthefrogs
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4245
EDLIN
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It may not be relevant but in 1770 when William Wheatley leased the Old Rose he also owned "The Chair" in Down Street (later renamed Denmark Street). At some time the Chair was renamed the Wellington Arms and was eventually in 1856 rebuilt at the entrance to the Wellington Brewery. (It is now the Sue Rider Shop by the entrance to what was the old Tescoand is now Argos and various restuarants). There was a previous brewery called Haywards but I don't know where that was located.
I mention it because of the connection between the Rose and the brewery.
David
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Logged
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Living in Berkshire. From Northampton & Milton Keynes DETAILS OF THE FOLLOWING NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley. Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Abiam
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1368
My "garden" by Abiam
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I have now found a birth for a John Wise in Aborfield at the appropriate time so I really don't see that 'The Rose' John is the one I want.
John Wise was definitely born in Fawley. So I am stuck with him being an Innkeeper in Market Place, according to the 1841 census and widowed in 1851 and living in Thorn Street Reading having retired from the brewery trade and receiving parish relief.
As I said before I think he was probably a Beerhouse keeper. I need a list of Beerhouse Keepers!
Thank you, David,
Abiam
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Logged
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Genealogists never die! They just undertake to join their ancestors!
DOBSON,Berks, Wilts.DOPSON, Fyfield, Wilts
SMITH, WEBB, Little Gransden, Gamlingay, Cambs
WEBB, Hatley St George, Hunts
HUNT, Wanborough, Swindon, Wilts
TUBB, Hungerford, Berks, EGERTON, Highworth, Wilts
WISE, South Australia, WISE, Fawley, Berks
WISE, Bray, Binfield, Berks
WYSE, Wise, Maidenhead, Berks
VINCE, VINCENT, St Mary Bourne, Hants, Bucks, Berks
TUCKWELL ANYWHERE!
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Abiam
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1368
My "garden" by Abiam
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I have just found the will of John Wise of 'The Rose'. I am sure he is not the one I am looking for but thought I would buy it as it would settle it one way or the other!
Trouble is my eyesight and 1852 writing don't work well together! So I shall ask advice on the Handwriting board and link it to here. It is most certainly John from the Rose as daughter Mary Ann Houlton is mentioned.
I can pick out that he had a brother James (so did my John) but not much else.
Abiam
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Logged
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Genealogists never die! They just undertake to join their ancestors!
DOBSON,Berks, Wilts.DOPSON, Fyfield, Wilts
SMITH, WEBB, Little Gransden, Gamlingay, Cambs
WEBB, Hatley St George, Hunts
HUNT, Wanborough, Swindon, Wilts
TUBB, Hungerford, Berks, EGERTON, Highworth, Wilts
WISE, South Australia, WISE, Fawley, Berks
WISE, Bray, Binfield, Berks
WYSE, Wise, Maidenhead, Berks
VINCE, VINCENT, St Mary Bourne, Hants, Bucks, Berks
TUCKWELL ANYWHERE!
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Abiam
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1368
My "garden" by Abiam
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Lizdb,
You are right I was up and running before I could walk! The 1841 census gives John Wise, 58, wife Mary, 52 both born in county and he is down as an Innkeeper in Market Place. But on Ancestry on the printed record ( before you view the actual image) it didn't give the other occupants and I didn't spot them. And then they were found on FMP with the other occupants!
All my fault. Anyone want a will for John Wise 1852?
Thanks for making me check again Liz,
Abiam
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Logged
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Genealogists never die! They just undertake to join their ancestors!
DOBSON,Berks, Wilts.DOPSON, Fyfield, Wilts
SMITH, WEBB, Little Gransden, Gamlingay, Cambs
WEBB, Hatley St George, Hunts
HUNT, Wanborough, Swindon, Wilts
TUBB, Hungerford, Berks, EGERTON, Highworth, Wilts
WISE, South Australia, WISE, Fawley, Berks
WISE, Bray, Binfield, Berks
WYSE, Wise, Maidenhead, Berks
VINCE, VINCENT, St Mary Bourne, Hants, Bucks, Berks
TUCKWELL ANYWHERE!
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9414
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Possible death
Jan/Feb/Mar 1854
John Wise
Reading ref 2c 223
unfortunately before ages in index
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Abiam
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1368
My "garden" by Abiam
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Thanks for that Liz. Frustrating isn't it? He was most certainly from Fawley Berkshire confirmed by a letter with a list of the children's birthdates and baptisms and the BRO. You can see in the 5th post how little I have found on them. IGI can't help. I did find a possible marriage on the Ancestry pre 1837 marriages to Mary Shail at Beenham 18 May 1808 but that seems to be it.
As I said earlier it is almost impossible to go any further with this family because of the time frame. I have managed to follow my direct ancestor who was a brother of John and really wanted to find out the stories of his brothers and sisters.
Thank you ,
Abiam
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Logged
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Genealogists never die! They just undertake to join their ancestors!
DOBSON,Berks, Wilts.DOPSON, Fyfield, Wilts
SMITH, WEBB, Little Gransden, Gamlingay, Cambs
WEBB, Hatley St George, Hunts
HUNT, Wanborough, Swindon, Wilts
TUBB, Hungerford, Berks, EGERTON, Highworth, Wilts
WISE, South Australia, WISE, Fawley, Berks
WISE, Bray, Binfield, Berks
WYSE, Wise, Maidenhead, Berks
VINCE, VINCENT, St Mary Bourne, Hants, Bucks, Berks
TUCKWELL ANYWHERE!
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