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Topic: Rose & Crown - Broxbourne (Read 864 times)
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leofred
RootsChat Member
Posts: 157
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi my great grandfather George Kemp on the 1871 census was a publican of the Rose & Crown Broxbourne Herts. This pub seems to no longer exist or has had a name change. I would like to have a photo of this pub so was wondering if anyone knows of any sites where I could find out more or knows what it is now called.
Kind regards
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« Last Edit: Monday 15 June 09 13:33 UTC (UK) by Rick »
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Ruskie
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4702
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Leofred,
Have you checked the neighbours in the 1871 census? If you have a look up and down the streets around the pub, you may be able to locate a landmark that still exists today which will help you narrow down where the pub is/was.
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leofred
RootsChat Member
Posts: 157
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I like your thinking but unfortunately there were 2 pubs as listed as on the High Road the aforementioned Rose & Crown and the King William 4 neither appear to be there today. If all else fails I could ring The Bull and The White Bear who are on the High Road now and see if they used to be Rose & Crown.
kind regards
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Ruskie
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4702
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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leofred, do you live in Broxbourne?
Can you give me the names of your ancestors and the census reference numbers? I'll have a little look to see if I can help. 
Of course that part of the High Street could have been redeveloped, so all you can hope for is an approximate location of the pub. Ringing The White Bear might be worth a try. 
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leofred
RootsChat Member
Posts: 157
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Thanks for your continued interest.
I rang the White Bear and they said it used to be Anne of Cleeves, I cant get a reply to the Bull but will keep trying.
This is the census details Herts, Broxbourne District 2
folio 33 piece 1349.
The schedule no is 107 the census year is 1871 and his name is George Kemp.
I spent the last evening trying to find out if there was a FHS for Broxbourne but I couldnt find one.
I really appreciate your help.
kind regards
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Nick29
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2904
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Try comparing the area in the 1881 census - there's no trace of a Rose & Crown in 1881. The FHS covering the Broxbourne area would be the Herts FHS
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Best Wishes, Nick. Research interests: Field - Luton & Islington Hole - Somerset, Suffolk & Surrey Farnish, Parker, Cattermole, Last, Wasp, Church - Suffolk Lewin/Lowin/Lowen - Hertfordhire Martin - Eltham & Greenwich, Kent (London) Stead - Greenwich, London (Kent) & Maidstone Wood - Hertfordshire Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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leofred
RootsChat Member
Posts: 157
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Nick thanks for your reply.
It looks like there were big changes in Broxbourne in 1881, I see The Bull and The White Bear but no Rose & Crown. The Kemp family are living at Wormley, Herts running a grocers.
As I only want a photo of the Rose & Crown I am looking for sites which provide old photos of pubs.
On reflection as there is nothing else I need I dont think its worthwhile joining Herts. FHS but thanks for the link.
kind regards
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Nick29
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2904
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The 1871 census mentioned the grocery business as well as the pub. Wormley is literally on Broxbourne's doorstep, and I think by 1881 there wasn't much separating the two places.
Incidentally, you don't have to join a FHS to ask them for help.
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Best Wishes, Nick. Research interests: Field - Luton & Islington Hole - Somerset, Suffolk & Surrey Farnish, Parker, Cattermole, Last, Wasp, Church - Suffolk Lewin/Lowin/Lowen - Hertfordhire Martin - Eltham & Greenwich, Kent (London) Stead - Greenwich, London (Kent) & Maidstone Wood - Hertfordshire Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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leofred
RootsChat Member
Posts: 157
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Nick thanks for your reply. I must admit when I first posted this request I thought someone on this site is bound to know where I can get a photo from. I just thought a photo would set off my research a treat. How naive was I?. I will contact the FHS as you suggest and will post how I got on.
regards
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Ruskie
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4702
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Just thinking about the White Bear being called Anne of Cleeves .... I suppose there a chance that the pubs currently on the High Road have gone through several name changes over the centuries?
Would the current landlords know what their pub was called in 1871? Possibly/probably not.
You say the Rose and Crown wasn't there in 1881 - was there still a pub there going by a different name or was the building demolished or altered?
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leofred
RootsChat Member
Posts: 157
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Ive had to p our myself a Pimms for this. Looking at the 1881 census because Broxbourne had expanded there are more districts and they have changed the name of the High Road to Broxbourne Road. I have found this difficult to get my head round this especially as I dont know Broxbourne.
I havnt managed to get through to the Bull yet they are either very busy or closed down. When I rang the White Bear the lady there told me she wasnt alive then but she did think it was once called Anne of Cleeves but she didnt think the pub was that old. I have emailed the secretary of HertsFHS with a request of help but I dont know whether they will help as Im not a member.
I am very grateful for your continued help.
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Ruskie
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4702
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I feel a bit the same leofred. I've just been up and down the high street on the census but it is a VERY long high street and there are so few landmarks to narrow down the area where the pub was.
If you have a look at a current map - the google maps satellite is good, I've "narrowed" ( ) it down to what streets exist now.
There is Station Road to the north which heads east off High Road. That is on the 1871 census.
Follow that south. Not too far down was the Bull Inn (that looks like it still exists today).
Now along High Road were lots of residences, only a few presumably larger ones were named, such as Chanon Farm and Walton or Watson Lodge. Something to think about too, is that there were far fewer residences and several farms along that road, with quite large distances between residences.
On the 1871, after the Rose and Crown there are a few more residences then William the 4th, then more residences along the High Road, then we come to Bull Lane.
Now I believe that "Bull Lane" is today's "Bell Lane".
(I've followed this road before looking for my own ancstors who lived in Broxbourne.)
On today's map, you can follow Bell Lane west - it turns into Baas Hill, then Broxbournebury (named on the 1871) then White Stubbs Lane, then Broxbourne Common (on the 1871) then Pembridge Lane (also on the 1871). So, this is the enumerators route in the 1871 cenus.
BUT unfortuantely the closest we can get is a guess as to the whereabouts of the Rose and Crown, which is towards the southern end of the High Road before today's Bell Lane.
All of this doesn't help with a photo of the pub, but I think the Herts FHS is worth a try. They may have a photo or drawing of the High Road which includes the pub. You could possibly ask them if there would be a cost involved in the search or if you can give a donation and they may be more inclined to help.
Good luck anyway - let us know how you get on.
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« Last Edit: Wednesday 17 June 09 21:39 UTC (UK) by Ruskie »
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leofred
RootsChat Member
Posts: 157
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Oh Ruskie I feel so guilty that I have put you to so much trouble on my behalf . Please give up now and wait for a reply from the Herts FHS. It will probabley be a while before I hear but what ever they say I will post on here.
Many grateful thanks for all that you have done.
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Nick29
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2904
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It's just occurred to me - another place to try would be the Hertford County Library. They may well have some local reference books, and if you ask them nicely, they may do a little research for you 
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Best Wishes, Nick. Research interests: Field - Luton & Islington Hole - Somerset, Suffolk & Surrey Farnish, Parker, Cattermole, Last, Wasp, Church - Suffolk Lewin/Lowin/Lowen - Hertfordhire Martin - Eltham & Greenwich, Kent (London) Stead - Greenwich, London (Kent) & Maidstone Wood - Hertfordshire Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Ruskie
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4702
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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It's no trouble leofred. I enjoy doing the detective work. Not a very good result this time, but following the enumerator's path often yields results.
Lets hope the FHS or Library can find something for you.
PS. My family are in Bull Lane
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