Emma Dobel-Help with identity on Census Family History Local History

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register for free.
Did you miss your activation email?
Friday 27 November 09 05:17 UTC (UK)

News: RootsChat has moved to a new home RootsChat has moved onto a new server, so we may have a few teething problems.

RootsChat.Com

Census Lookups General Lookups

Census and Resource Discussion

Census Lookup and Resource Requests

Emma Dobel-Help with identity on Census

« previous next »

Pages: [1]

Author

Topic: Emma Dobel-Help with identity on Census (Read 255 times)

porcelayne ladye
RootsChat Extra

Posts: 59

Emma Dobel-Help with identity on Census
« on: Wednesday 17 June 09 17:07 UTC (UK) »

Emma Dobel was my gt grandmother born 17 September 1838 @ Heavitree Exeter dau of John Dobel Painter & Glazier Mother Ann formerly Hubbard.
She also had an elder sister. John and Ann only had 3 children a brother John
born December 1837 died 6 days old

1841 Census Heavitree
John Dobel 35 Painter born in county
Ann 35 " " "
Sarah 5 " " "
EMMA 2 " " "

1851 Census Heavitree
John Dobel Head Mar 46 Painter and Glazier Devon Exeter
Ann Dobel Wife " 45 Surrey Mitcham
Sarah Ann Dau 15 Devon Heavitree
Emma Dau 12 Devon Heavitree

So far so good - Then confusion sets in:

1861 Census Herby Street Saffron Hill
John Dobel Head Mar 56 Painter and Glazier Devon Exeter
Ann Dobel Wife Mar 55 Surrey Mitcham
Sarah Dobel Dau U/M 25 Dressmaker Devon Heavitree
EMMA NISBET Dau MAR 21 Dressmaker Devon Heavitree
EMMA NISBET G/DAU 4 HOLBORN

CANNOT FIND A MARRIAGE FOR EMMA DOBEL TO A MR NISBET
CANNOT FIND A BIRTH FOR EMMA NISBET HOLBORN
(1 in Dec 1856 Mutford Suffolk/Norfolk

0n Emma (1838) Marriage certificate in her Father is JOHN DOBEL PAINTER
She is given as a SPINSTER

1871 Census No 1 Millman Place Holborn
John Dobel Head Mar 67 Painter and Glazier Devon Exeter
Ann Dobel Wife Mar 66 Surrey Mitcham

Huh

Apart from possibly wasting money on a birth certifcate for this Mutford birth
how can I find more information about the 2 Emma Nisbet's. Huh

By 1871 Emma (1838) was now married (1867) to my gt grandfather
William Rex(Widower) and living back in Exeter.

This story also gets a little bit more complicated later but will see what your thoughts are on this first. If there is Embarrassed

no first marriage registered and Huh

no registration for her daughters birth Holborn circa 1857 what can I do if anything. Look forward to your comments. I know what a brilliant lot of people you are out there have helped me before in the past.

Many Thanks

Kind Regards

Porcelayne Ladye


	Logged

Grainger Worcestershire before 1850
Chamberlain Worcester before 1850
Cowburn Preston-Salford Lancashire before 1850 Beaumont Norfolk Sussex ALL
Knapp Worcestershire before 1850
Lee Worcestershire before 1850
Rex Devon before 1850
Wainwright.Portsea. Hampshire. Before 1850
Pardoe Worcestershirebefore 1850
Grainger Manchester All
Berkshire Family History Society
0xfordshire Family History Society

avm228
RootsChat Marquessate

Posts: 5130

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Re: Emma Dobel-Help with identity on Census
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 17 June 09 17:31 UTC (UK) »

Hi

The best I can find for young Emma's birth is this (though the date is a couple of years out):

Birth Dec qtr 1859
NISBETT Emma Louisa
Holborn 1b 482

Anna

ETA: I see she's enumerated (in the Rex household) as aged 11 in 1871, so perhaps she wasn't really as old as 4 in 1861?


	Logged

Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

avm228
RootsChat Marquessate

Posts: 5130

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Re: Emma Dobel-Help with identity on Census
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 17 June 09 17:41 UTC (UK) »

I can't see a marriage for Emma senior to a Mr Nisbet(t) or Nesbit(t).

Perhaps she never married young Emma's father (despite using his name and claiming to be married in 1861) - which would be consistent with her being a spinster upon her later marriage to William Rex.

Plenty of women with illegitimate children pretended to census enumerators and others that they were married to the child's father.

Anna


	Logged

CaroleW
RootsChat Marquessate

Posts: 16686

Barney 1993-2005

Re: Emma Dobel-Help with identity on Census
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 17 June 09 22:01 UTC (UK) »

Hi

If you decide to buy a copy of the 1859 birth cert - put a condition on your application that you only want it if her mothers name was Emma

If by any chance it's the wrong entry (which I very much doubt) the GRO will only charge a £3 search fee


	Logged

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Ruskie
RootsChat Marquessate

Posts: 4701

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Re: Emma Dobel-Help with identity on Census
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 17 June 09 22:21 UTC (UK) »

In the 1861 cenus - perhaps Emma the granddaughter should be 4 months rather than 4 years?

I have also seen a case where a girl with a child is living with her parents, has a different surname, is listed as being married but no marriage can be found ... and later when she marries she is a "spinster".

Wink


	Logged

CaroleW
RootsChat Marquessate

Posts: 16686

Barney 1993-2005

Re: Emma Dobel-Help with identity on Census
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 17 June 09 22:28 UTC (UK) »

Hi

If her age was meant to be 4mths - her birth would be late 1860 or early 1861 which would then throw doubt on the 1859 birth


	Logged

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

porcelayne ladye
RootsChat Extra

Posts: 59

Re: Emma Dobel-Help with identity on Census
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 17 June 09 22:59 UTC (UK) »

Hello Anna Thank You I think you might have cracked it for me.
Back in the 1970's -1980's when originally doing my Rex family history
could never find a birth for EMMA REX born Holborn.(St Catherines House
days of lugging big books off shelves). I knew she existed long before doing my research as my father knew so much about his family which he told me about back in the 1950's1960's. THANK GOODNESS 0therwise would never have found out some of the things I have been looking for. Emma Rex(nee Dobel) Senior was his grandmother and I have a photograph of her taken back in the 1890's.
I knew from my father his father and brothers and sisters lived in Paris Street Exeter went to Portugal Street London and located 1871 census on film. In those days was the latest available census open to public.

In April this year came across some pieces of paper with notes I had written down about Emma Rex knew she had had 3 husbands (all died before her).Knew where she had lived and the order in which she was married.Knew she was in the Licensing Trade and the names of the public houses she kept which were also verified from 1891-1911 Census Returns.

Could not find 1st marriage to George Jefferies

found the second to ALFRED HIPPOLITE ROGERS Emma Louisa Jefferies WIDOW Father William Rex House Decorator. 1893

third marriage Emma Louisa Rogers Widow
Married Henry George Adams Bachelor
Father William Rex (Deceased) (He died in 1902)

After some time managed to locate on Free bmd marriage for
George Jefferies clicked on partner and up came EMMA LOUISA DOBEL

In desperation sent off for this marriage and when it came back gave
Fathers name as JOHN DOBEL (Deceased) George Jefferies Father as
John occupation gardener.

From census returns from 1841-1911 only problem was for EMMA in 1861
calling herself Nisbet.

William Rex was widowed in March 1863 leaving him with what I thought was 3 boys and one girl.

William remarried in 1867 to Emma Dobel Spinster aged 30 in Taunton Somerset.

In 1871 Census Exeter EMMA P N REX aged 11 Born Holborn
Could not understand why she did not appear in 1861 Census or a birth for her
in St Catherines.

1881 Census place of birth London (1) age 21
Married August 1882 age 22

1891 Census Born Holborn London age 30

1901 Census Born London age 38

1911Census Born London age 49

She seems a bit confused as to exactly how old she is at time
From her newspaper obituary and burial records she was 76
in August 1939.

I ALWAYS HAVE TO BE 110% sure on my researches but on looking at this today in a completely different light written down for someone else
???WHAT DO YOU THINK Huh

IS THIS EMMA LOUISA NISBETT born Dec 1/4 1859
Emma Dobel that married George Jefferies.

the illegitmate daughter of my gt grandmother Emma and step daughter to William Rex****

At the time of her Marriage in Reading gave her Aldershot address but her husband to be Henry George Adams was actually staying at my grandfathers
public house in Reading where his mother Emma and possibly NOW her Mother Emma was living up until her death 5 years later.

It looks as though the missing piece of the jigsaw might have finally be found.

first thing tomrrow I will be phoning GRO for a copy of Emma Louisa Nisbett's birth certificate.

Sorry it was a bit long and protracted but needed to give you all the facts so that you could be an outsider analysing for me.

Thanks for being patient and hopefully read all.

Very Many Many Thanks for finding what I hope to be my Emmas Birth. Cheesy

did say in my initial posting how fantastic you people are at Rootchat.com.

Kind Regards

Porcelayne Ladye

ps incidentally on the 1841 Census it shows William Rex was apprentice to
John Doble at Heavitree. John was the brother of Williams mother. Making
William and Emma Cousins.
So if 2 cousins marry and one has an illegitimate daughter is the daughter IE EMMA LOUISA NESBITT his Second cousin as well as stepfather? Huh


	Logged

avm228
RootsChat Marquessate

Posts: 5130

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Re: Emma Dobel-Help with identity on Census
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 18 June 09 00:04 UTC (UK) »

Aha! Well, since she was Emma Louisa on three separate marriage certificates then I am very hopeful that the birth certificate will say what you want it to say Wink

CaroleW's advice is good - to add mother's name of Emma in as a checking point so that if it's the wrong baby you won't pay the full whack.

But I've got a good feeling about this one! Let us know how you get on.

Anna


	Logged

porcelayne ladye
RootsChat Extra

Posts: 59

Re: Emma Dobel-Help with identity on Census
« Reply #8 on: Monday 22 June 09 19:16 UTC (UK) »

Hello Anna
E U R E K A Grin

I sent off for Emma Louisa Nisbett's birth certificate on Thursday
and it arrived today. Cheesy

Emma Louisa daughter of John Nisbett Gentleman
and Emma Nisbett formerly Dobel
Born 20 Kirby Street Hatton Garden September 1859
sub district of Saffron Hill and Registration district HOLBORN

My maths are bad but John Dobel's are even worse on Census he says
she was four. The 1861 Census was taken on 7 April 1861 surely that would make her around 19 months old.

But dont know how old George Nisbett was or where he came from to track him down. Devon or London. Huh

Any suggestions?

Many Many Thanks for finding her birth stupid me did not put the second T in Nesbitt.

Kind Regards

Porcelayne Ladye


	Logged

porcelayne ladye
RootsChat Extra

Posts: 59

Re: Emma Dobel-Help with identity on Census
« Reply #9 on: Monday 22 June 09 19:18 UTC (UK) »

Hi Anna
In the excitement of finding Emma after nearly 30 years gave the father's name wrong on my previous email

SHOULD BE GEORGE NISBETT NOT JOHN

Porcelayne Ladye


	Logged

avm228
RootsChat Marquessate

Posts: 5130

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Re: Emma Dobel-Help with identity on Census
« Reply #10 on: Monday 22 June 09 19:25 UTC (UK) »

Wonderful!

How we're going to trace George Nisbett I don't know, but for now - congrats on finding the right birth certificate

ETA: Any occupation given for George on the certificate?

Anna


	Logged

avm228
RootsChat Marquessate

Posts: 5130

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Re: Emma Dobel-Help with identity on Census
« Reply #11 on: Monday 22 June 09 19:34 UTC (UK) »

I was hoping that 20 Kirby Street might be George Nisbett's residence in 1861, but on doing a place-search I find that it was the address of the Dobel family.

Hmmm...


	Logged

porcelayne ladye
RootsChat Extra

Posts: 59

Re: Emma Dobel-Help with identity on Census
« Reply #12 on: Monday 22 June 09 20:15 UTC (UK) »

Hi Anna
Sorry I thought I put George's occupation on:-
0ccupation of Father GENTLEMAN

If a ficticious name Emma chose pretty unusual one.

Regards

Jayne


	Logged

avm228
RootsChat Marquessate

Posts: 5130

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Re: Emma Dobel-Help with identity on Census
« Reply #13 on: Monday 22 June 09 20:58 UTC (UK) »

Quote from: porcelayne ladye on Monday 22 June 09 20:15 UTC (UK)

Hi Anna
Sorry I thought I put George's occupation on:-
0ccupation of Father GENTLEMAN

If a ficticious name Emma chose pretty unusual one.

Regards

Jayne

Sorry, Jayne - you did say that.

Now it's just a question of finding him Shocked

Anna


	Logged

Pages: [1]

« previous next »

[Copyright] [Shrink Link] [About Us] [Terms of Use]

All Census Lookups are Crown Copyright, National Archives for academic and non-commercial research purposes only
RootsChat.com cannot be held responsible directly or indirectly for the messages or content posted by others. Inline images in messages are the copyright of the respective linked sites.
RootsChat.com, Europa House, Bury, Lancashire, BL9 5BT

0.049:18