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Topic: BELLVE Victoria (Read 818 times)
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Eyesee
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2692
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Esteven BELLVE arrived in Melbourne on the Swiftsure in May 1862, with his wife and young son. By mid 1863 he was in Wanganui in NZ along with a couple of the other Spanish passengers from the same boat, Jose SOLE (Joseph SOLER) and Joseph FORT. The passenger list has the name as BELLOE, but suspect this is a mistranscription, the way the v was written to look like an o.
Also on the Switftsure was an Emily CONSTABLE, with her brothers Christopher and Robert. Emily had given birth to a son on the boat on the voyage out. In February 1863 Emily travelled on the Pet from Melbourne to Dunedin, with her young son.
Whether by arrangement or accident, Estevan met up with Emily in Dunedin, and formed a relationship with her. Their first child was born there late 1864. They had five more children before marrying in 1882 before the birth of their seventh and last child. Estevan put himself as a widower on the marriage certificate. He was Catholic and divorce from his first wife would have been out of the question.
The son who is down as John on the passenger list was actually Stephen. It is thought he stayed in Melbourne with his mother until 1872, when he starts at Wanganui Collegiate, a secondary school in Wanganui. After about 1900 Stephen used to travel to Melbourne once a year on his own. Nobody is sure if he was visiting relatives or just holidaying.
What we are trying to find out is what happened to him from 1862-1872, and also what happened to his mother. Family here in NZ have a photograph of a woman lying on a bed surrounded by flowers, and rosary beads, and it is thought to be her on her deathbed. No maiden name is known and we are also not sure of her christian names.
Estevan BELLVE was Spanish. He does not appear in the 1861 UK census and is though to have arrived in London not long before the Swiftsure left.
Ian C
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CLAPHAM, Leeds and London
TOMLIENS, Herefordshire and Southwark
CLARKE, Sussex, Cambridge and Shropshire
FAULCONER, MANNINGTON, RICHARDSON, TICEHURST, BROOK, ELPHICK, All Sussex
UDY, CLEMENCE/CLEMENTS,WHITE, COITE, COBELDICK, Cornwall
BROOKING, Devon, India
FERNANDEZ, London, Somerset, Herefordshire
RUSH, CARTER, GIBSON, REMINGTON, London and Surrey
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tropicalj
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9028
Mason and Callum
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Hello there
If you check out provic you will notice there are three passengers on the Swiftsure
http://proarchives.imagineering.com.au/index_search.asp?searchid=23
BELLOE JOHN aged 3 APR
BELLOE STEPHEN aged 36
BELLOE STEPHEN aged 21
not sure what to make of it, perhaps if you could get somone to look at the passenger lists for any further clues.
There are not deaths showing for Bellve up to 1889 in Victoria for the name Bellve or Belloe
JEnn
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When you search for ancestors, you find great friends! I live in Townsville, Australia researching TOWNSEND,PINNEGAR, STRANGE, PULLEN, GRIFFIN from Wiltshire,, SHOEBRIDGE, VINALL, BRINDLE, Kent BAYLEY, Dorset,Yorkshire, HAIR, Durham, CUMMINS, BROWNLESS from Yorkshire, EDSALL, Cornwall, MORGAN, HENNESSY, BAKER, Ireland. In Australia Hennessy, Hair, Bayley, Townsend, Shoebridge, Edsall, Adamson, All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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sarra
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 494
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Ian,
I checked the manifest for the Swiftsure - this is what I found.
Bellve (or Belloe) Stephen age 36 - single - Trader.
" Stephen " 21 - " "
" John " 3 Child
Constable - Emma - age 18 - spinster.
" Robert - age 11 - Trader. (should be child)
" Christopher - age 13 - child (I think this should be Trader)
All of the above were contracted to land Melbourne.
They were all supposed to be English - from what I can see.
What confuses me is that you say Esteven Bellve arrived with his wife and young son - I can't see his wife listed on the manifest.
I'm wondering if perhaps he was actually with Emma (Emily) Constable and her brothers. Because as you say he had a child with her in 1864.
Birth recorded - Emma Constable, unmarried of a son February 10th.
Hope this is of some help.
Sarra
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regross
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 922
paper doll fashionista
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Hello,
I think that Sarra may have nailed it.
Families often obscured the truth about premarital relationships ands children in that era.
Whilst saying Estevan travelled out with his wife and child he would not actually have been laying , merely not telling the full story. They did travel on the same ship. Emma/Emily's babe was born on the way out also.
Which of the two Stephen BELVE's is the ESTEVAN you are looking for, and to whom did the 3 yo John BELVE belong?
Do you know what happened to her brothers Robert and Christopher? They may have been the fasmily John was visiting in Australia.
There is obviously quite a story behind this relationship that will be fascinating to research.
good luck
Robyn
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Abbott, Barnard, Clarke, Inward, Lanfear, Rutter,Spencer: Middlesex;
Greenaway:Cornwall;
Edney, Godwin/Goodwin, Gullett, Hampshire;
Gullett: Devon:
Emms:39th Regiment of Foot 1810-1832
Gordon, Scotland;
Arnold, Morton: Ireland;
Davies:Wales;
Olcorn:Cumberland;
Osborne: Staffordshire;
Harrington: Kent
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sarra
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 494
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Robyn,
You raise some interesting questions - I guess we have to wait for Ian to come back to this post to answer them.
In the mean time I have found a marriage for Christopher Constable to a Margaret Burns in 1875, they did have children - Christopher died in 1881.
Also Emily Constable did register(Victoria) the birth of her son born at sea - he was called - Thomas Alfred Constable.
Sarra
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Eyesee
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2692
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Thanks everyone.
Estevan snr was the Stephen aged 36. His son was John aged 3, who became known as Stephen in NZ. The family here in NZ have had a DNA test done with one of Stephen's male descendants and another male descendant of Estevan from his marriage to Emily, and the match was 99.99%. The Stephen aged 21 we are almost certain was actually MRS Stephen. Fairly common way of putting down the wife's name in those days. Also errors in the sex of passengers was common as well.
A recent programme on forensic science of handwriting showed definitively that old ‘Nether German’ handwriting wrote the “V” as a near “O”, in which the circle was 96% complete, with only a minor gap at the top. If the ship’s master ‘or recorder’ had been trained in writing Nether German, which was used frequently at the time, even among the English, then “Bellve” would appear in the ship’s log as “Belloe”.
The BELLVE family had no connection with the CONSTABLE family in England or on the Swiftsure, probably meeting for the first time on the voyage. The father of Emily's baby born on the boat was a soldier named Thomas CHILDS or KILDO from the Chatham Barracks. The registration is a bit hard to read hence both being a possibility.
As I said in my first post Emily did not hook up with Estevan until late 1863 early 1864 in Dunedin. The Victorian goldfields were petering out by then and gold had been discovered in Otago, and the place was flooded with miners and hangers on from Victoria as well as other parts of NZ.
As mentioned earlier also the family have a photo of a woman on a bed surrounded by flowers and rosary beads. Since posting the other day have been told she looks about 30, and that the flowers are Australian native that come out in the spring, which would be November or thereabouts. This age would fit with Stephen starting school in NZ in 1872 and his mother being 21 in 1862.
Other names that are connected are SOLE, later anglicised to SOLER in NZ, as that is how it was pronounced, as well as FORT. There was another Spaniard on board as well, but can't remember what his name was. The SOLER family in NZ had a painting of Estevan's mother, so there must have been some relationship there. Another name that could be connected is RIUS, also Spanish. Estevan and Emily are buried in the same plot at the Feilding Cemetery. Also in that plot is a Joseph RIUS, who originated from Barcelona, and who had boarded with Estevan for a number of years. The name could also be spelt as RUIS.
Christopher and Robert CONSTABLE stayed in Victoria. Robert never married, and Christopher married Margaret Burns. Am in touch with one of their grand-daughters.
Ian C
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CLAPHAM, Leeds and London
TOMLIENS, Herefordshire and Southwark
CLARKE, Sussex, Cambridge and Shropshire
FAULCONER, MANNINGTON, RICHARDSON, TICEHURST, BROOK, ELPHICK, All Sussex
UDY, CLEMENCE/CLEMENTS,WHITE, COITE, COBELDICK, Cornwall
BROOKING, Devon, India
FERNANDEZ, London, Somerset, Herefordshire
RUSH, CARTER, GIBSON, REMINGTON, London and Surrey
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cando
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6239
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Who is named as the mother on son Stephen's marriage and death certificates?
Cheers
Cando
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tropicalj
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9028
Mason and Callum
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CONSTABLE Christopher died aged 33 in 1881 at Echuca reg no 10218
Father: Saml Mother: Sophia SCIENDRIA
Is this the correct Death if so an intersting last name of his mother
Jenn
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When you search for ancestors, you find great friends! I live in Townsville, Australia researching TOWNSEND,PINNEGAR, STRANGE, PULLEN, GRIFFIN from Wiltshire,, SHOEBRIDGE, VINALL, BRINDLE, Kent BAYLEY, Dorset,Yorkshire, HAIR, Durham, CUMMINS, BROWNLESS from Yorkshire, EDSALL, Cornwall, MORGAN, HENNESSY, BAKER, Ireland. In Australia Hennessy, Hair, Bayley, Townsend, Shoebridge, Edsall, Adamson, All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Eyesee
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2692
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The marriage and death certs have Emily Constable as his mother, but we know for a fact that she was NOT. Her name may have been Emily but last name was not Constable.
Christopher Constable's parents were William Thomas CONSTABLE and Sophia SINDREY.
Ian C
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CLAPHAM, Leeds and London
TOMLIENS, Herefordshire and Southwark
CLARKE, Sussex, Cambridge and Shropshire
FAULCONER, MANNINGTON, RICHARDSON, TICEHURST, BROOK, ELPHICK, All Sussex
UDY, CLEMENCE/CLEMENTS,WHITE, COITE, COBELDICK, Cornwall
BROOKING, Devon, India
FERNANDEZ, London, Somerset, Herefordshire
RUSH, CARTER, GIBSON, REMINGTON, London and Surrey
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tropicalj
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9028
Mason and Callum
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I did note with interest that he included
Constable as his first childs middle name 
I have tried different ways to find a death in Victoria that might be the missing wife. He must have abonded her very quickly to follow the young Emily to New Zealand and have a number of children with her. I wonder who the missing wife stayed with in Victoria.
It would be very interesting to see the photo of the young woman on her death bed so to speak.
Jenn
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When you search for ancestors, you find great friends! I live in Townsville, Australia researching TOWNSEND,PINNEGAR, STRANGE, PULLEN, GRIFFIN from Wiltshire,, SHOEBRIDGE, VINALL, BRINDLE, Kent BAYLEY, Dorset,Yorkshire, HAIR, Durham, CUMMINS, BROWNLESS from Yorkshire, EDSALL, Cornwall, MORGAN, HENNESSY, BAKER, Ireland. In Australia Hennessy, Hair, Bayley, Townsend, Shoebridge, Edsall, Adamson, All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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cando
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6239
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Ian is the photographer or studio named anywhere on the photograph?
Cheers
Cando
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regross
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 922
paper doll fashionista
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Hello,
I note on the IGI there are several entries relating to the Bellve family both in Australia and in NZ. They are submitted entries and one is for ESTEVAN BELLVE born GOULBURN c1864. I have been unable to find this in the NSW or Victorian records.
If this is the place of birth it might be worth contacting the local churches to see if they have any baptismal records which should show the mothers name.
They may also have a receord of her death.
regards
Robyn
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Logged
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Abbott, Barnard, Clarke, Inward, Lanfear, Rutter,Spencer: Middlesex;
Greenaway:Cornwall;
Edney, Godwin/Goodwin, Gullett, Hampshire;
Gullett: Devon:
Emms:39th Regiment of Foot 1810-1832
Gordon, Scotland;
Arnold, Morton: Ireland;
Davies:Wales;
Olcorn:Cumberland;
Osborne: Staffordshire;
Harrington: Kent
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Eyesee
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2692
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The submitted IGI info appears to be from one person here in NZ, who is a descendant, but some of it is based on family stories, not proven facts.
Until the Swiftsure list became available everyone had thought Stephen had been born in Australia.
Another story was that Estevan's first wife may have been Elizabeth Constable, an older sister of Emily, but that has since been proven not to be true either. She married an Alfred BULLINARIA in Luton, near Rochester Kent, in 1858, and was still there in 1861. They did come out to Australia as well, but not until 1869-70. I have posted on here before about them, trying to find when they did arrive. Date came from his death cert, said he was 19 years in Victoria.
Trying to find the photo so I can post it on here.
Ian C
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CLAPHAM, Leeds and London
TOMLIENS, Herefordshire and Southwark
CLARKE, Sussex, Cambridge and Shropshire
FAULCONER, MANNINGTON, RICHARDSON, TICEHURST, BROOK, ELPHICK, All Sussex
UDY, CLEMENCE/CLEMENTS,WHITE, COITE, COBELDICK, Cornwall
BROOKING, Devon, India
FERNANDEZ, London, Somerset, Herefordshire
RUSH, CARTER, GIBSON, REMINGTON, London and Surrey
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Eyesee
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2692
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Here is the photo
Ian C
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CLAPHAM, Leeds and London
TOMLIENS, Herefordshire and Southwark
CLARKE, Sussex, Cambridge and Shropshire
FAULCONER, MANNINGTON, RICHARDSON, TICEHURST, BROOK, ELPHICK, All Sussex
UDY, CLEMENCE/CLEMENTS,WHITE, COITE, COBELDICK, Cornwall
BROOKING, Devon, India
FERNANDEZ, London, Somerset, Herefordshire
RUSH, CARTER, GIBSON, REMINGTON, London and Surrey
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jorose
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4645
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http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/
- lots of various interesting things, including one from Mar 4 1881, saying that someone had played a trick on Mr Esteven Bellve of Feilding by writing to the Rangitiki Advocate, pretending to be him, and requesting them to publish a notice of his marriage to a Miss Holland - another note on Mar 18 1881 says it was "Miss Sarah Elizabeth Hollard"
Also in 1869 inwards to Wellington on the Wanganui - a Mr Bellve - could this be young Stephen?
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Deathbed.JPG