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Topic: Mary Lawson (b.1806) Avondale (Read 1243 times)
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Ticadeau
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 16
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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The reason I did not know of the Tweeddale connection is interesting in itself. My grandmother, 9th daughter of William Kirkland and Isobel McColl, was named Mary Hay Kirkland. Their Dairy farm is located under Louden Hill in Darvel. Today it is called Underlaw. My grandmother left Scotland in the early 1900's to come to America to marry my grandfather, William Scott, who was the miller at Craigmill in Strathaven. Like her name sake, she was disowned for marrying beneath her class and none of the siblings were allowed to write to her. She died of Typhoid months after my mother was born. When Elizabeth (Bess) Kirkland Kelly died, she left some money to my mother. Somehow it found its way to my mother after many changes of addresses. My mother communicated occasionally through Isabella Carrouthers who I assume is Bill's mother. She was the last living person who had known my grandmother but died two months before I was able to get my mother to Scotland to meet her. Douglas was a wee boy at the time...1966.
Someone in Australia of my McColl family from the 1700s actually found my mother's family in Australia and it was there I learned of the Tweeddale connection.
I was departing for Scotland in two weeks and altered my itinerary to include a 15 minute look in Duns Castle. I told my son I would pay if he would make reservations, carry my bags, drive, handle the money a go where I wanted to go. I had found about 9 places where the family had lived. It was a trip that garnered me a hug when we returned home.
It was a Sinclare genealogist in Aberdeen who put it all together for me. Did you know William Hay had a previous marriage to an Elizabeth Turnbull daughter of James Turnbull, a stocking weaver in Edinburgh? His son William and Elizabeth of that marriage tried to inherit his estate. They, however, had been removed from the records and Spott and Lawfield went to Robert.
Having grown up on the Colorado range, I am more used to cowboy and Indian wars and am struggling to understand your kings and queens. I shall now have to read up on Edward III! My son also came out a DNA match to the O'Neil Kings which it is said if your name is still O'Neil, you are most likely a legitimate descendant. My x husband believed he was a king and has the name O'Neil. That is why I use my grandfather Scott's name. I can't tell you how much I loved Grandpa Scott. I wanted the name of somebody who had loved me.
My e-mail is (*) should you like to communicate directly. You have much to teach me. How are we related and how are we related to Edward III.
Is Netherhall the farm where Mary Hay and William lived? How did Elizabeth Kirkland end up living at Netherton farm? I have a picture of her, I believe, Grandpa Kirkland, my grandmother and Archibald Kirkland at his wedding.
Look so forward to hearing from you.
Shirley Scott
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Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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« Last Edit: Saturday 25 July 09 21:21 UTC (UK) by aghadowey »
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Bathonian
RootsChat Member
Posts: 129
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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The only marriage I was able to find on the SP for a William Scott and Mary Hay was on 7 Jan 1801 at Canongate, Edinburgh City. But I've been unable to find the birth or baptism of Mary to confirm her parents. So does anyone have any information on them and hence the line backwards? It would be great to see the line to the marquis of Tweeddale, and even better to see a line to Edward III. 
Regards
Ken
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Somerset: Parfitt,Cooke,Mears,Mathews,Snooke,Badman,Ward,Hobbs.
Wilts: Hancock, Eyres, Allen,Wilmot,Carpenter,Plank, Burgess.
Dorset; Trim,Gray,Young.
Lancs: Scott,Hardman, Booth.
Carms: Morgans,Morris, Price,Thomas
Her; Ledster,Taylor,Fox,Barley, Powell,Smith
Middx: Page,Bishop.
Glam: Rees,Evans,Williams,Lewis,Hopkins,Jenkin,Hugh(es)
Cards: Evans,Davies,Jenkins
LNK: Scott, Lawson,Meikle, Bunton,Semple,Stobo,Alison, Craig, Weir, Couper,Stewart, Thomson,Draffan, Hay
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Ticadeau
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 16
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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LWR
You are a treasure trove of information. I am just learning to use this site and yesterday's note timed out. I perhaps had too many questions. If you are familiar with Netherton Farm, and Elizabeth Kirkland Kelly, are you related to her? My grandmother, Mary Hay Kirkland, the youngest daughter, was also disowned for marrying William Scott, miller at Craigmill in Strathaven. Elizabeth Kirkland left some money for my mother when she died. Bella Carrouthers saw that my mother received it after many years of address changes.
A child of the Colorado prairie, I am more familiar with wars between cowboys and indians. How are we related to Edward III? William Hay's wife was Elizabeth Sinclare descendants of Sir John Sinclare and Robert Sinclare which can be traced to Viking royalty. They lived at Stevenson in Dunbar. William had a previous marriage to Elizabeth Turnbull whose father was James Turnbull, stocking weaver in Edinburgh. They had two children, William and Elizabeth. On William's death, they tried to inherit the estates of Spott and Lawfield but they had been erased from the records and the estates went to Robert, oldest son of William and Elizabeth Sinclare.
Please teach me anything!
Sincerely,
Shirley
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Lanark55
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 8
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Mary Hay's, parents were the Hon. William Hay of Lawfield & Spott and Miss Elizabeth Sinclair of Stevenson. She was one of three sisters. I have a copy of the parish register showing Mary's birth in East Lothian. Also the parents marriage.
William Hay's father was Lord Alexander Hay of Spott , second son of 1st Marquess of Tweeddale of Gifford, East Lothian. His wife was a Buccleuch (Duke) and it is through this line back, Edward III is reached. Going further back you of course arrive at Edward I - the Hammer of the Scots!!!! Not a family member we Scots which to brag about!
The information that William Hay was married before provides a new angel. I always wondered why William married a much younger lady!!!
Yours for now
LWR
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Bathonian
RootsChat Member
Posts: 129
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks LWR,
Now it's a little easier to move, knowing the connection. In fact some of the history is turning out to be very interesting. I have noticed that Mary Hay never gets a mention anywhere other than in the record of her birth. She was supposedly written off for marrying below her station, but you would have thought that mention of her would have appeared somewhere.
Ken
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Somerset: Parfitt,Cooke,Mears,Mathews,Snooke,Badman,Ward,Hobbs.
Wilts: Hancock, Eyres, Allen,Wilmot,Carpenter,Plank, Burgess.
Dorset; Trim,Gray,Young.
Lancs: Scott,Hardman, Booth.
Carms: Morgans,Morris, Price,Thomas
Her; Ledster,Taylor,Fox,Barley, Powell,Smith
Middx: Page,Bishop.
Glam: Rees,Evans,Williams,Lewis,Hopkins,Jenkin,Hugh(es)
Cards: Evans,Davies,Jenkins
LNK: Scott, Lawson,Meikle, Bunton,Semple,Stobo,Alison, Craig, Weir, Couper,Stewart, Thomson,Draffan, Hay
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Bathonian
RootsChat Member
Posts: 129
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Elizabeth,
William Scott and Agnes moved down to Heapfold Farm, Heap Bridge, Heywood, near Bury, to farm. My wifes ancestor, was James, the next son who became a hay and straw dealer, and he had a son William who became an auctioneer, I suppose dealing in agricultural goods. He was the first connection into the Scottish ancestry, so anything that comes out of my enquiries and answers will apply to you as well, so check them out.
Ken
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Somerset: Parfitt,Cooke,Mears,Mathews,Snooke,Badman,Ward,Hobbs.
Wilts: Hancock, Eyres, Allen,Wilmot,Carpenter,Plank, Burgess.
Dorset; Trim,Gray,Young.
Lancs: Scott,Hardman, Booth.
Carms: Morgans,Morris, Price,Thomas
Her; Ledster,Taylor,Fox,Barley, Powell,Smith
Middx: Page,Bishop.
Glam: Rees,Evans,Williams,Lewis,Hopkins,Jenkin,Hugh(es)
Cards: Evans,Davies,Jenkins
LNK: Scott, Lawson,Meikle, Bunton,Semple,Stobo,Alison, Craig, Weir, Couper,Stewart, Thomson,Draffan, Hay
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cantcot
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 5
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thankyou Ken. It explains something I have wondered about for a long time, why my Grandfather - Thomas Scott - and his family moved to Bury, Manchester to farm. It now opens up another side of the family I did not know anything about. Would be interested in further information about this family.
Elizabeth.
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Lanark55
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 8
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Mary Hay did leave quite a sum of money in 1839. You should have a look at her will as recorded at National Archives in Edinburgh. You can get a copy through Scotlands People.
LWR
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Ticadeau
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 16
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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How interesting that the second husband of Elizabeth Turnbull, first wife of William Hay, was a tailor. It was a tailor who witnessed the marriage of Mary Hay and William Scott at Canongate Kirk in January 1801. Certainly a stocking weaver, James Turnbull, and a tailor might have had close connections. Only one witness was at their marriage. Usually two were required. I saw Mary Hay's slippers in Glasgow in 1966. She was a very small person as the peach, satin emboridered slipper were not only beautiful but very small. I saw a shawl and a brooch which read, The faster ye flee, the faster ye die.
I have been flying over Scotland this evening via Google Earth locating Netherhall Farm of Sandilands. It appears there may be a large pit of sand on the property.
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Lanark55
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 8
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Not a sand pit but a peat bog. Extraction has taken place there for years.
Regarding almost all the surrounding farms , they have all been farmed by successive generations of William Scott and Mary Hay. At this point none are still farmed.
For successive generations of my family, Mary Hay was always known as Lady Mary. I do not know how as she was not at least the daughter of an earl or a viscount!!
LWR
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Ticadeau
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 16
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I have been so slow in responding as I have been unable to access the internet due to a password problem.
There must be a great many relatives in that area then. As I flew about last night, I did notice smaller roads leading into windbreaks and houses. Is Netherton Farm one of the Scott farms? From the air, they are not far apart and close to Sorn where many Kirklands lived.
When you say they are not farmed, do you mean by Scotts or not farmed at all? I thought I saw a Hyslop and Sons at Netherhall Farm.
Is the peat used in distilleries? I understand one who really knows his Scotch knows where the peat comes from? You do not farm? While I am so charmed by the old stone mansion's I imagine you would be awed by climbing down into the Cliff Dwellings of Mesa Verde in Colorado.
The Homes also lived at Spott and were involved in the Priory in Coldingham. I have communicated with a keeper of the priory, Rennie Wurtherhead, who spoke of 'those awful Homes'. Is it the economist who changed his name to Hume because he was so ashamed of his family? Rennie said his name had to do with sheep hearders. So when I went to the sheep and wool fair, I went around asking where the wurtherheads were! I did just buy a hand woven woollen blanket from the MacAuslands of the Island of St. John's off the Eastern shore of Canada. Last night was oddly cold for August and it was a warmpth I have never known. They are still using some of the old equipment from 300 years ago!
I think we called her Lady Mary Hay because she was so special to those of us who lived in a much less pretentious state. While her name may have disappeared in Peerage books, my grandmother never wrote just Mary Kirkland. It was always Mary Hay Kirkland. Always. I wish I had known my grandmother.
I am a little overwhelmed at the moment with my new iPhone. I justify it by believing it will help me get about Scotland when I do not have to go by Google Earth. It is amazing! My son shall be able to get my GPS at anytime while I am there. At this point in my life, that is a favorable feature. The reverse would probably not be true if HE were on travel!
Sincerely,
Shirley
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Ticadeau
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 16
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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The following genealogy was sent to me by a genealogist in Aberdeen. Remember she was addressing someone who knew nothing.
The earlier generations were called Lord Hay of Yester (from 1487). One of them was made Earl of Tweeddale by Cromwell in 1646, during the Covenanting period. He was against Charles I, but his son changed sides and was for Charles II, and therefore got the upgrade to Marquess. The younger sons of the family would have an estate bought for them and be known by its name, e.g. Hay of Drumelzier, Hay of Spott, etc. Sometimes these estates came into the family through the wife's dowry.
Your William was born 30 Dec 1699. His parents were Alexander Hay of Spott and Catherine Charters, who were married 22 April 1697. William was the 2nd son, and inherited Lawfield on the death of his unmarried brother, Robert.
His father, Alexander, was a younger brother of the 2nd Marquess of Tweeddale. Their parents were John Hay, 1st Marquess of Tweeddale (the one who was a Colonel in the Covenanting Army, but then changed sides) and Jean, daughter of the Earl of Buccleugh.
My insertion follows.
This is where the Charles II comes in. I have read that the first illegitimate son of Charles II was made Duke of Buccleugh. Jean is our link to Charles II.
His parents were John Hay 1st earl of Tweeddale and Jean, daughter of the Earl of Dunfermline.
His parents were James Hay, 7th Lord Hay of Yester (Note -not Lord Yester) and Margaret, daughter of the Earl of Lothian.
His parents were William Hay, 5th Lord Hay of Yester and Margaret Kerr. This was another one who changed his mind, starting off supporting Mary Queen of Scots, fighting for her at the Battle of Langside, but them swooping to the opposition a year or 2 later.
His parents were John Hay, 4th Lord Hay of Yester and Margaret, daughter of Lord Livingstone. He spent some time in the Tower of London as a prisoner of war.
His parents were John Hay, 3rd Lord Hay of Yester and Elisabeth, sister of the Earl of Angus.
His parents were John Hay, 2nd Lord Hay of Yester and Elizabeth Crichton. He died at the Battle of Flodden.
His parents were John Hay, 1st Lord Hay of Yester and Mariot, daughter of Lord Lindsay.
Remember, I do not know your history as well as you do and spelling may not be 100 percent correct.
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Ticadeau
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 16
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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The following genealogy was sent to me by a genealogist in Aberdeen. Remember she was addressing someone who knew nothing.
The earlier generations were called Lord Hay of Yester (from 1487). One of them was made Earl of Tweeddale by Cromwell in 1646, during the Covenanting period. He was against Charles I, but his son changed sides and was for Charles II, and therefore got the upgrade to Marquess. The younger sons of the family would have an estate bought for them and be known by its name, e.g. Hay of Drumelzier, Hay of Spott, etc. Sometimes these estates came into the family through the wife's dowry.
Your William was born 30 Dec 1699. His parents were Alexander Hay of Spott and Catherine Charters, who were married 22 April 1697. William was the 2nd son, and inherited Lawfield on the death of his unmarried brother, Robert.
His father, Alexander, was a younger brother of the 2nd Marquess of Tweeddale. Their parents were John Hay, 1st Marquess of Tweeddale (the one who was a Colonel in the Covenanting Army, but then changed sides) and Jean, daughter of the Earl of Buccleugh.
My insertion follows.
This is where the Charles II comes in. I have read that the first illegitimate son of Charles II was made Duke of Buccleugh. Jean is our link to Charles II.
His parents were John Hay 1st earl of Tweeddale and Jean, daughter of the Earl of Dunfermline.
His parents were James Hay, 7th Lord Hay of Yester (Note -not Lord Yester) and Margaret, daughter of the Earl of Lothian.
His parents were William Hay, 5th Lord Hay of Yester and Margaret Kerr. This was another one who changed his mind, starting off supporting Mary Queen of Scots, fighting for her at the Battle of Langside, but them swooping to the opposition a year or 2 later.
His parents were John Hay, 4th Lord Hay of Yester and Margaret, daughter of Lord Livingstone. He spent some time in the Tower of London as a prisoner of war.
His parents were John Hay, 3rd Lord Hay of Yester and Elisabeth, sister of the Earl of Angus.
His parents were John Hay, 2nd Lord Hay of Yester and Elizabeth Crichton. He died at the Battle of Flodden.
His parents were John Hay, 1st Lord Hay of Yester and Mariot, daughter of Lord Lindsay.
Remember, I do not know your history as well as you do and spelling may not be 100 percent correct.
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