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Topic: elizabeth and minnie spain (Read 669 times)
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dinkie
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 10
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hope you had a good time tonight, my granddaughter has been and had dinner with us, its her 26th birthday tomorrow, so it was lovely to be able to have some time with her, shes a nurse, so we do not see her very often. She,s on duty tomorrow on a late, so now has her presents to look forward to in the morning.
Been racking my brains, the only Axil Christian Bruhn i have managed to find, was in the 1901 census, he was 25, so from my reckoning he was born 1876, he was living in Scotland, in the same house, was a lady whose surname was Maloni, think she was 33 or 35, and she had a young son. No mention of a husband though. Do not have any info as to where he as born or where he died sadly. Quite a puzzle. I have noticed some Bruhns have been listed as living in Livepool, but as Liverpools a port, Bruhns could of come from abroad as its an unsual name. Sadly Victor Wallace amd May his wife lost a daughter aged five years old, her name was Brenda, and that was one of the reasons they emigrated to America.
I have the original birth certificate if Mary Ann Streeting, a bit tattered, and it has been repaired, to keep it together, so i paid for a copy. Also have a copy of the wedding of Mary Ann & William Spain. Her age does not make sense though on the certificate. Grandmothers ( Minnie lucy) sister, Jane, i think i found her granddaughter a few years back but her husband was very ill, so i think sadly due to this, the contact stopped. I did not like to pester her, & she seemed quite elderly, so i suppose she may have passed away. Grandmother was the last of the children born to Mary Ann, from memory i can not remember if there nine children in all. Think there were twin boys amongst the children. It was a big family, but in those days that was not unusual.
We are flying on sunday to Genoa, as we are going on a weeks cruise Golden Anniversay treat, never been on one before, so a little nervous. I,m hoping to be able to get my emails on board. It was very interesting to read your email, and my granddaughter is very intrested in what i have been doing and wanted to read your reply. So she was enthralled. Want to keep in touch, and hopefully we will be able to unravell between us more about the Spain family. goodnight for now Sylvia
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« Last Edit: Sunday 18 October 09 17:16 UTC (UK) by casalguidi »
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nelwild
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 549
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hello again Sylvia,
You probably wont want to be on the computer whilst your on holiday,so just a quick bit on the headstone.
The way its written is a bit confusing,and i think some of the inscription has been added later.
William George Spain had two children by 2nd partner Elizabeth OBrien,William born 1890-1952 and Elizabeth born 1892.
William jnr married Lily Mathews in Faversham 22nd April 1907.She was the daughter of Walter Mathews and Nancy Collins.
Elizabeth married Albert Edward Grey in Swansea 1st November 1916.He was the son of William Grey and Winifred Williams.
These are the Albert Edward and Elizabeth Grey on the headstone.I think this has been added by Albert And Elizabeths living children.I believe that two of Albert and Elizabeths children are in the grave,William and Nancy i believe.
It also says erected by only devoted daughter E Grey.
William George did have a sister Elizabeth born 1860.Ive found a marriage between an Elizabeth Spain and George Frederick Marvell a/m/j 1878 thanet which might be her,the problem being on 1881 census that Elizabeth is born 1857 ramsgate,on 1891 shes born 1859.Theres another Elizabeth Spain born 1856 on earlier census,so would need birth cert to confirm.
William Spain and Lily Mathews are buried close to William George in Whitstable cemetary,their memorial is a large marble cross.
Next to them is their daughter Lily,who married a horse dealer called Donald Hubble.Not sure what happened to him yet.
Two of Alfred Grey and Elizabeths children were twins Nancy and Mary,both born in 1917.The mystery about them is they both died in the same quarter in 1990.Im very intrigued by that and would like to find out what happened.
I have so much intresting info i want to share including William Georges trial at the Old Bailey,and the Romany connections.
I knew nothing about the properties in Ramsgate,the house he had built or the shop,it sounds facinating,a bit like The Old Curiosity Shop.
Im going to try and send a short personal message to see if it works yet as that would be the best way to converse in future,its really easy,just like email.When you first log on to rootschat their should be a sentence in the top right hand corner saying how many messages you have,just click on it.
Once i know it works ill send more.
Ill leave you to enjoy your holiday for now,hope you have a lovely one and congratulations on the anniversary,
All the best,
Nel.
Nel.
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dinkie
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 10
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hello Nel, just returned to cambridge tonight , now at my sons till wed 4th when we will go down to shrewsbury to attend to my mothers grave. We will finally get home around the 16th or 17th of this month, as we are now visiting friends and two of our other childrena and their families whilst we can. During the year we are host mother and father to international students, and can not visit anyone,whilst we have them so we take a couple of months off, to do what we call a round robin. When i get home i want to print off all that you have sent me so i hope i do not lose any of it. I find it all very intriguing, and have been trying to find out about the Spains in St lawence for about twenty years now. I get a great kick when i buy a certificate and its one i,ve been looking for. I will my laptop with me, so we can keep in touch now. Thanks for all the info so far. Sylvia
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nelwild
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 549
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hello Sylvia,
Really nice to hear from you again.
Ive sent a short PM and will post some more info tonight,
Nel.
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dinkie
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 10
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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nel, am now back home, sadly had to go to a funeral in Hereford of a very old friend. Joyce my friend was 85 so had had a good innings, but it is still very sad when a friend passes away.
The last commuication i had from you was on the 8th november, and you mentioned that you were sending more info, however to date i have not recieved it, so hope alls well with you. I will be back on line tomorrow night, rather tired as we only got back late tonight, but thought i would write a quick email to you. take care sylvia xxx its blowing a gale here at the moment.
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nelwild
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 549
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hello Sylvia,
Very sorry to hear about your friend Joyce.
Sorry i didnt post straight away,ive had a stinking cold and felt really lousey,a lot better now though.
Ive sent a short PM as i still dont completely feel confident with it after messing up before.If you get it then i will use that in future.
Ill give you some of what i have on the Spain lines now.
My 6x g-grandfather was William Spain born 1760 Thanet or Fokstone.He married Susannah Gifford on 25/02/1786 Church St Lawrence,Thanet.
They had 8 kids that im aware of:
Mary 06/08/1786
Sarah 20/07/1788
Susannah 10/01/1790
John 12/06/1796 (my 5x g-grandfather)
Stephen 02/08/1801 (Minnie Spains g father)
George 14/12/1803
Henry 07/07/1805
Ann 04/06/1807.
All born Margate and baptised at Parish Church.
Ann married William Doughty 1831.
Henry married Emma Mummery in 1826.
Your line is Steven Spain who married Sophia Mumford 06/12/1820 Ramsgate Parish Church.Both worked as hawkers.
There children were
Sophia 1821-1898 married John Darby j/a/s 1841 Thanet.Both were hawkers.
Abraham Benjamin Spain born 1827.
Ann born 1830
William 1834-1895
Frances 1840-1852.
Jemima 1841.
William married Mary Ann Streeting,also known as Mary Ann Buckley on 24/01/1854 in Canterbury.
She was the daughter of Thomas Streeting and Elizabeth Buckley.
Thomas and Elizabeth married 25/08/1841 Parish Church Eastchurch.
Elizabeth was born 1821 Ireland died 1884 Canterbury.
Thomas then married widow Mary Ann Shaw (formerly Brown) 15/01/1885 Cranbrook,Kent.She was a hawker.
Her father was William Brown,general dealer.
She was born 1830 Birmingham
William Spain and Mary Streeting had 10 kids that im aware of,although the 1911 census says she had 15,not all of whom survived,cant remember the detail,will check later.
I have a considerable amount of info on the Streeting family which i will share later.
Children that i know of for William and Mary Ann were
Mary Ann 1857 wardrobe dealer
William George 1858
Elizabeth 1860
James 1862
Jane 1863
Henry 1865
Anne 1871
Frederick 1874
Walter J 1877
Minnie 1879
Ive got to go now as its my Mums birthday today and were all going for a meal tonight,will post more Tomorrow,
Nel.
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dinkie
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 10
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Nell, I have the original marriage certificate of William Spain and Mary Ann Streeting, they married on the 24th October 1854, but you have the marriage date as the 24th January 1854, Mary Ann was born to Thomas Streeting and Elizabeth Spain nee Buckley, they were living at the time,Coal Harbor Lane,Saint Mary Northgate. Here are the details of some of the certificates i have of their children.
William George Spain born 13th April 1858 at 4,Newcastle Hill,Ramsgate,
Ann Jane born 19th September 1861 at 72,King Street, Ramsgate (she married Joseph Purity Gibbons 18th November 1883) Register office Thanet, She was living at Providence House Rmsgate.
Minnie Lucy (my grandmother) born 13th December 1878 newington St Lawrence, ( died 21st April 1944 at 25, st swithuns road Bournemouth ) Widow of George Martin Packer. Thanks so far for all your details you,ve sent me of the families, very thrilled with it all. Hope you had a good night with your mum bye for now Sylvia
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nelwild
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 549
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hell again Sylvia,
had a good night thanks,feeling a bit frayed around the edges today though.
My mistake on William/Mary Ann marriage,it should say 24/10/1854,i too have marriage cert and it definately says that.
I was very intrested that you say Mary Ann Streeting was born to Thomas Streeting and Elizabeth Spain nee Buckley.I have Thomas and Elizabeths marriage cert,it was on 25th August 1841 at Eastchurch Parish Church,and she is Elizabeth Buckley on that.Do you know if she was previously married to a Spain?
I think you mentioned earlier that you had Mary Anns birth cert,id be very intrested to know what info is on that.
I have three siblings for Thomas Streeting born 1818 Canterbury.
They are:
Robert born 1820 Canterbury,woodman/hawker married Mary Hagarty on 26th August 1841 at eastchurch Parish Church.
Henry born 1822 Canterbury,dealer/bobbing maker married Sarah Tappenden a/m/j 1845 Canterbury.
Mary Ann born 1823 Canterbury,licensed hawker,married Daniel Buck,licensed hawker in 1841 at Blean.
There Father was John Streeting,general dealer,born 1786,Harbledown.
I have some spouses for Minnies siblings.
Mary married 1st-George Burrow 12/11/1874 Frindsbury,Kent.
2nd-John Amos j/f/m 1883 West Ashford
James married a lady from Wales called Esther Griffiths.
Henry married Jessie Saxby Fenwick a/m/j 1884 Thanet.
Annie married Oliver Parker j/a/s 1890 Thanet.
Frederick married Frances Pierce a/m/j 1892 Dover.
Walter married Harriet Pilcher a/m/j 1899 Thanet.
With regard to Minnies 1st partner Axiel Christian Bruhn,the Scotland census has him born 1875 Denmark,(Danish Subject) occupation margarine traveller.I believe that means a travelling salesman who sold margarine.That cant have been the easiest of summer jobs in the days before refridgeration!The lack of info on him might mean that he returned to Denmark after a brief liason.
Whats also very intriguing is that,as Casalguidi found earlier,when Minnie married her second husband Dec 1919 Portsmouth,she was Minnie L Lidgate.
Have you any idea where Lidgate comes from?
Back to my notes now,will post again soon,
Nel.
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nelwild
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 549
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hello Sylvia,
just a bit on my line,John Spain born 1796.
John Spain married Sarah Warner on 12/10/1817 Margate Parish Church.
She was the daughter of William Warner born 1762 and Sarah Brice born 1765.
John And Sarahs children were
William born 1824 married Maria Slaughter j/a/s 1845 thanet
Jane Elizabeth born 1826 married married Richard Pain,labourer, 12/01/1845 thanet
Emma Susannah born 1828 married James Osborn,hawker,a/m/j 1851 thanet
Sarah Amelia born 1831 married 1st George Penn,labourer,10/10/1847 thanet
2nd John Oldfield 03/01/1854 W Australia
Caroline Eliza born 1832 married Robert Hurst,labourer.
Charlotte born 1835 married Robert Bristow,house painter,j/a/s 1857 thanet
John Thomas born 1836 married Mary Rapson
Louisa born 1840 married Charles Saffery,fish dealer, on 08/07/1860 thanet.
Im not 100% certain about William and Charlotte and need to confirm these.
My gggg grandparents were Richard Pain and Jane Elizabeth Spain.
Richard died in 1855 at the age of 28.Im not sure when Jane died.
They had 4 children:
Richard born 1847 Margate
George born 1848 margate
John Thomas born 1850 margate
Susannah Sarah born 1852 margate
After Richard snrs death in 1855,Richard,John and Susannah ended up abandoned in Thanet workhouse,where they were in 1861.
By this time their Mother is in a lodging house in Whitstable and she has two more daughters,Louisa born 1856 and Elizabeth born 1859.
There Father was a Thomas Warner 1830-1904.He didnt marry Jane.
Ive no idea what became of Richard jnr,George or John Thomas.
Nor do i know what happened to Elizabeth(1859).
Louisa(1856) had a relationship with a Thomas Bennett,they didnt marry,and i dont know where or when she died.
My ggg grandmother susannah sarah pain had a relationship with a person unknown,and gave birth to my gg grandmother Sarah Amelia Pain at the age of 18.
Sarah Amelia went on to have a relationship with a person unknown,and gave birth to my ggrandmother Emma Jane Pain(Payne) at age of 15.
Emma Jane went on to have a child with a person unknown(Meg) before marrying my ggrandfather Nelson Camburn.
They went on to have 10 children,of whom 8 survived,one was my grandmother.
Ive been doing my tree for about four years now,and all this illigitimacy has made researching parts of it a nightmare.I realise there are some of my ancestors ill probably never uncover,but i wont stop trying.
Will post more later,
Nel.
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dinkie
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 10
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Nel , Thanks for the info i got today, must of been a good night if youre feeling a bit under the weather. My mistake about the Mary Ann (Spain being her married name). I had my certificate album on my knee whilst i was writing to you, and i was trying to write it down how you do it, so neatly, but i have not got a clue how you do it. Did not realise till you mentioned it i had put Sapin.
Now for the info on Mary Ann Streeting birth certificate it is as follows but there must of been a mistake on the marriage certificate as she,d of been only14 in 1854.
1840 Birth in Canterbury 4th April 15 minutes before 12 at night at Coal Harbor Lane Saint Mary Nothgate, Name Mary Ann (girl) father Thomas Streeting Mother Elizabeth Streeting formerly Buckley Father(laborer) Registered 29th April 1840.
I knew of Henry Spains Marriage to Jessie Saxby Fenwick, as i found their daughter Mabel Grace born 21st december 1891 they were living 9 Camdon road Ramsgate and she was registered 28th January 1892. I will look on the marriages in 1919 December for Minnie L lidgate and see who she was married to if i can, but have no idea where Lidgate came from unless Axil not axiel, Christian Bruhn had another name. Will let you know what i find. Hope you,re feeling more like your old self now. take care sylvia
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dinkie
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 10
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi again Nel, You must think i,ve gone potty, i had a look at the message about Thomas Sreeting & Elizabeth Buckley, no she was not a spain i meant That Mary Ann became a Spain when she married, i could not of had my thinking cap on. Must of been away with the birds i think.
One question i want to ask, some of your messages have lee on them and did you have someone called Ricky Chamberlain tracing the family tree for you, only getting a liitle confused as most of your messages are signed Nel. Well i found the entry of George M Packer Married to Minnie L Lidgate,, qrt december 1919 in Portsmouth, so have phoned today and sent for it . Hopefully it will be the Minnie L, but have no idea where lidgate came from. What year did you find Axil Christian Bruhn in the Scotland Cenus, and how did you find out he was a margarine traveller? ? On uncle wallys (victor Wallace Bruhns birth certificate it said that the ocupation of the father was a commercial traveller, so that fits. Wish we could find more about him, as when uncle Wally was two it said my grandmother Minnie Lucy aged 32 was a widow. Hope you get this, as i had to go back through the messages to find where i could reply too. Hopefully i shoud get the certificate in 5 days time, but i could be lucky and get it before the weekend, touch wood eh!!!!! take care sylvia
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nelwild
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 549
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hello Again Sylvia,
Nelwild,or Nel,is my username on this site,my real name is Lee.Ricky Chamberlain is family and he helps me with research.
This Lidgate thing is very intriguing.I cant find any marriage for Minnie Spain to Axiel Bruhn,so im assuming they didnt marry.
Nor can i find any marriage for a Minnie Spain or Bruhn to a Lidgate in the timeframe,so its a mystery why she was Lidgate.Hopfully the marriage cert will throw some light on it,i look forward to hearing what that says.
The census for Axel is the 1901 Scotland:
Axel Christian Bruhn,lodger.
age 25
born 1876 Denmark,Danish Subject
reg no 282/1
reg district St Peter
Civil Parish Dundee
County Angus
30 South Tay Street
Occupation Margarine Traveller
the Family hes lodging with are:
Helen Maloni
born 1865 Germany(British Subject)
Photographers Wife
Tom Maloni born 1896,Ayr,Ayrshire,Son.
will post more soon,
all the best
Nel(Lee)
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nelwild
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 549
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hello once more Sylvia,
bit more Spain info,this one is Sarah Amelia Spain,the Sister of my GGGG Grandmother Jane,shes quite intresting as she went to Australia.
Born 1831 Margate,married 1st :
George Penn,Labourer,born 1827 Kent on 10/10/1847.
They went to Western Australia on the Sophia in
They had 3 kids that i know of:
Frederick Lewis 1848-1849
John Clayborn Penn born 1850 at Sea died of typhoid 1895 in WA.(named after Captain Clayborn of Sophia)
Elizabeth born 1852 Western Australia died 1944.
Elizabeth married Robert Carter 1868 WA.
He was born 1846 Downham Market,Norfolk,died 1929 WA, son of convict Robert Carter born 1820 Downham Market and Phoebe Oxborough.
Robert snr was convicted of malicious wounding Norwich 1851,sentenced to life imprisonment.Arrived WA aboard Ramillies 07/08/1854,given conditional pardon 12/08/1861.Applied to have wife and 4 kids brought to WA,they arrived aboard Hamilla Mitchell.
Robert and Elizabeth had 8 sons,2 daughters,77 grandchildren,139 g grandchildren and 8 gg grandchildren,and became involved mostly in gold prospecting,pubs and farming intrests.
Sarah Amelia Spains 1st husband George Penn fell into the Swan River and drowned after a heavy drinking session in 1852.
She went on to marry John Oldfield,pit hallier, 03/01/1854 in WA.
Hed been sentenced to 7 years transportation in 1851 for stealing sheep,was first aboard prison hulk sterling castle,then sailed from Portlands Roads on SS Marion 02/11/1851,arrived Freemantle WA 30/01/1852.
He was son of James Oldfield born 1800 Bedminster,hallier, and Esther Gould,they married 12/12/1820.
James shipped to Tasmania 1929,died that year,before he died Esther bigamously married a coal miner called Samuel Page.
John Oldfield and Sarah Amelia had one son that i know of,Henry James born 1854 Guildford WA.
He married Mary Euphemia Saunders 21/11/1877 Middle Swan.
Mary was daughter of William Saunders born 1832 Haddington,East Lothian,Parkhurst Child convict,a lucifer match hawker and Helen Deborah Devilly born 1832 Galway,daughter of John Devilly and Mary Welch.
William and Helen were married 1st 1854 Port Gregory,but records were lost,so married again 1857 Geraldton.
Ive only recently obtained this info and hope to discover a lot more.Some might say a few unsavoury characters,but i prefer to think of them as fascinating and very intresting.
More to follow,
Nel.
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dinkie
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 10
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Nel, wow! all that sounds so interesting, wonder what skeltons we have in our side of the Spain family, there surely must be some. Somewhere along the line perhaps we are distantly related, i wanted to print your latest infro but somehow my printer would not let me, it came up i think the latest, page 14,. I did wonder if perhaps i deleted some of the previous pages then i might be able to print your latest one, but would you believe i i could not find out how to delete it from the RootsChat-com. So cant print your latest info sadly, as i,m filing everything. Also i wanted to send you a photo of my husband and i but tried and i could not attach it from my pictures. You are so much better at all this than me. Really look forward ech day when i open up my laptop to see if theres another message from you. Take care ( blowing a hooley here) sylvia
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nelwild
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 549
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hello Sylvia,
were definately related as my ggggg grandfather John Spain was the brother of your gg grandfather Stephen Spain.Ive no idea what that makes us,but were certainly related.
You mention skeletons,so I have a bit of info that might be of intrest.
Your gg grandfather Stephen Spain was a hawker and fish dealer.He stood trial for larceny in Sandwich,Kent 24/12/1835(christmas eve).He was aquited of all charges.
His grandson William George (minnies brother) stood trial at Old Bailey 21/04/1884 for theft of horses and carts.
His accomplices were Joseph Chaff,Horatio Chaff,Richard Jones and Joseph Mansfield.
William was aquitted,the other 4 each got 7 years penal servitude.
I mentioned Romany connections before,not a skeleton i know,but very difficult to uncover,there are some in my line and more in yours.
William Spains wife Mary Anne Streeting,your g grandmother,had connections through marriage to a lot of Kent travelling families,including Scamps,Todds,Bakers,and many more.
Mary Anns own father was a traveling general dealer,and i believe her Mother Elizabeth Buckley had Romany roots.
I have Thomas Streetings marriage cert to his second wife Mary Ann Shaw,formerly Brown,widow.It was 15/01/1885 in Cranbrook,Kent.He was a marine store dealer(scrap dealer),she was a hawker.His father was John Streeting,general dealer,hers was William Brown,general dealer.
Ive struggled to uncover much on Mary Ann,but id say she was almost certainly a traveller.
Minnies brother William Georges second partner was Elizabeth OBrien,wardrobe dealer, born 1867 Canterbury,daughter of John OBrien and Mary Ann(possibly Maloney),both hawkers from Ireland.
Elizabeth had 7 siblings that i know of:
William born 1865,hawker.
Mary Ann born 1862,dealer in wardrobe.
Joanna born 1861 married Alfred Arnold on 23/09/1877,possibly a traveller.
John born 1859,general dealer.
Joseph born 1859,general dealer married Harriet Euden j/a/s 1875.
Edward born 1853,Middlesex,Hawker.
Michael born 1855 married Elvina(Elvy)Baker on 22/07/1876 Canterbury,she was daughter of John Baker and Mercy Barton,travelling hawkers.
There son John born 1875,general dealer, married Sarah Ann Waller j/f/m 1894 Milton,Kent.In 1901 they are living in a caravan in Elham,Kent.
She was daughter of William Waller and Phoebe Jones,travelling hawkers.
Johns brother Joseph Obrien,general dealer, born 1883 married Naomi Penfold o/n/d 1903 Elham,she was daughter of John Penfold and Naomi Ripley,travelling hawkers.
Back to Spains,William Georges son William born 1890(minnies nephew) married Lily Mathews 1907 in Faversham,Kent,she was daughter William Mathews,travelling horse dealer and Nancy Collins,hawker.
Williams sister Elizabeth married Albert Gray,a third generation horse dealer from Swansea.
His grandfather Archie married 2nd time the widow of Charles Hambleton,travelling showman.
Im also convinced that William George had connections,either family or professional, to the famous Sanger showman/circus family from Margate as his memorial in Whitstable is an excact replica of John Sangers in Margate Cemetary,even verse,although Johns is about twelve foot tall.With the Sangers being equestrians and William a horse dealer it seems likely,although i suspect it might be between the 1911 census and Williams death in 1935,love to know what he was up to in those 24 years.
I have a very large family tree on genesreunited with a lot of info including extended Romany families,do you belong to it?
My fingers aching now,more to follow,
Nel.
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« Last Edit: Wednesday 25 November 09 09:34 UTC (UK) by nelwild »
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