blackangel
RootsChat Member
Posts: 147
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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hi
i have had some good feedback on the fraser family which was originally frieser but now i`m stuck again on a morris frieser born abt 1830 in krakow poland.....he married a miriam(last name unknow)and i`m not even sure when they got married....i know i have relations somewhere out there also doing the tree but i cant find them...so if anyone else has info on morris or any others pleasse let me know
thanks
kirsty
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posteria
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 582
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Hello
I have just found this http://www.jewishtelegraph.com/roots_93.html
If you have not already seen it, scroll down to the last entry on the page. There is a photograph of John (Frederick) and Blanche and also a telephone number and an email address for a relation. They may be out of date but possibly worth a try.
posteria
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JustinL
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1006
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Hello Kirsty (and Barry, Alex and Jan),
I am fairly certain that I have traced your Frieser family back through a couple more generations!
Firstly, a slight aside. Manchester is in Lancashire. So you are posting to the wrong board.
Anyway, I have searched the online database of Jewish vital records for Krakow (JRI-Poland) and the following clear picture emerges. Fryzer, incidentally, is a very unusual surname.
Elias Fryzer and Blume Chaim had the following children:
Moses Lebl Fryzer (Freseur), b. 14 May 1806
Zanvil Fryzer, b. 1813
Getzel Fryzer, b. & d. 1816
Jozua Szyia Fryzer, b. 1820, d. 1821
Chayim
Chayim Friseur married Lea Lac in 1824. Salomon Fryseur (b. 1824) and Beniamin Fryseur (b. 1826) were probably their sons.
In Jewish genealogy, the naming pattern is a vital clue in establishing family connections. The occurence of Elias and Blume amongst the names Morris gave to his children suggests a link. Moreover, children were named after deceased relatives such as parents and grandparents.
Working from Morris' birth year (c1831), it would seem reasonable to assume that he was another son of Chayim and Lea. Morris' first son, Hyman, was indeed named after a deceased grandfather. Hyman is simply a Yiddish form of Chayim. Morris' father was named after his maternal grandfather. Blume Chayim is to be read as Blume daughter of Chayim.
Lea Friseur died in 1880. This explains why Morris did not give this name to any of his daughters.
Morris himself (Moshe in Hebrew, Moysheh in Yiddish) was quite possibly named after his paternal grandfather.
I'll have a further dig around to see what else I can find.
Justin
PS You might want to send personal messages to members bfraser and 'Alex and Jan'.
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Alex and Jan
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 296
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We were just looking for the family in the 1911 census when we read your message.
Sorry we have not got back to you Kirsty.
Alex and Jan
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blackangel
RootsChat Member
Posts: 147
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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no prob dont worry about it.....
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Alex and Jan
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 296
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We have found the family in 1911 - do you have that ?
We will try to phone the friend who is descended from this family at the weekend, as we are not sure where she is.
We are in Australia so the times are a lot different.
Jan
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blackangel
RootsChat Member
Posts: 147
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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hi
no i dont thinkn i have the 1911 one....and thanks for that i`m very greatful for u ringing your friend thanks alot.......
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Alex and Jan
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 296
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Our friend is not on the internet, that is why we are going to ring her.
In the 1911 census John and Blanche are living in Bristol and have a daughter Norah Mary 5 months old. Morris is a widower living in Manchester. Another son Solomon wife Sarah and 5 children are living in Salford.
Do you have them in earlier censuses or did you find my earlier posting ?
Have you been in touch with Barry ? I would like to contact him again.
Jan
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blackangel
RootsChat Member
Posts: 147
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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hi
thanks for that...no i cant get intouch i found his home address but i dont know whether to write or not as he doesnt know me (but he knows my nana as their cousins)and i havent an email address for him....i have some of the census yeh but i dont know which ones by hand i got them off ancestry.co.uk......
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in kent
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 3
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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JustinL
I was bfraser with rootschat previously but have changed my sign-in details.
Thanks very much for the info on the previous generation of the Friesers in Krakow. I had problems getting the information about the Krakow links. My wife and I even went to Krakow but there were few resources there that I could find. Nice city though and some evocative Jewish cemeteries.
The Fryzer/Freseur/Fryseur spellings of the surname is a puzzle to me. I suppose this is due to general indifference to spelling conformity at the time. However I am wondering how you were able to focus on this particular family as having the link with 'my' friesers. I have come across another Frieser family in Manchester at the time Morris and Miriam were young in the city and wondered if there was a connection by virtue of them having the same spelling of their names.
Kirsty
My brother Geoffrey let me know you were tying to get in contact. Please do send me an email if you want to or send a letter as you have my address. Your great grandad Jack was my uncle therefore your grandmother is my cousin.
Alex and Jan
Thanks for keeping an eye on my family. Was not aware that the 1911 census was available yet. So it was great to hear about my grandparents living in Bristol (in a pub no doubt) with their new baby Nora.
Barry
Barry
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JustinL
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1006
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Hello Barry,
I am glad to make contact at last; I was beginning to think that no-one was interested in the early genealogy.
Standardised spellings is a modern phenomenon; add to that the issue of transliteration from one language to another (e.g. Yiddish to Polish or Russian to Polish or German to Polish). Our Jewish ancestors were highly literate, being taught Yiddish and Hebrew from an early age. However, they may not have been able to write in local vernacular!
As I pointed out in my earlier posting, Fryzer is very unusual indeed in the database for Krakow. (Incidentally, Frieser is merely a German rendering of Fryzer.) Straightaway that limits the number of records to assess. When you start to consider the naming pattern, i.e. how names are passed to subsequent generations, there is really very little doubt that your family and the one in the early records is one and the same.
Ideally, there would be a record naming Morris' father as Chayim (a gravestone would be perfect), so we cannot be absolutely certain. However, I would be at least 95% certain.
The other Friesers in Manchester could well be related. Cousins and/or siblings often emigrated together. My ggf came over to London in the early to mid 1870s with two elder brothers.
Justin
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in kent
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 3
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks Justin for the help on the name spelling variables - I suppose the pronunciation of the name was similar regardless of the phonetic spelling.
Is your family linked to the Friesers in some way?
Barry
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JustinL
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1006
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Barry,
You're welcome.
No, I am not related, just enjoy helping people with their Jewish ancestry.
Justin
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