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Author Topic: Rothiesmay vs Portsoy Episcopal IGI confusion  (Read 302 times)
nickgc
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Posts: 851


GGF J. James McLellan 1864-1908
Rothiesmay vs Portsoy Episcopal IGI confusion
« on: Tuesday 23 June 09 21:25 UTC (UK) »
My 4x grt grandparents (Robt Shand & Jane (Jean) England) appear in what appears to be 2 registries.   Kids between ca 1800 to ca 1820 show up variously in Banff/Aberdeen except my own 3x grt gma Margaret b. 1805-08. 

Margaret does show up in censuses from 1841 to 1881 (as a Manson [Hanson in 1851]). But in 1881 says "born St Nicholson Aberdeen".  I presume this means St. Nicholas?  Would love to find a validated birth/christening for her, but perhaps she went by her middle name.

What is with the dual entry?  My guess is that the Rothiesmay entry (I have photocopy scan) is civil, and Portsoy Episcopal is the church the deed was done in.  Is this correct?  Or are they both the same?

Thanks for any elucidation.  I will be checking scotlandspeople next week (after new debit card acoount set up) for her death reg. now that I know she died between 1881 and 1896.

Nick

 
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McLellan - Inverness
Greer - Renfrewshire
Manson - Aberdeen & Orkney
Simpson - Hereford, Devon, etc.
Flett - Orkney
Chisholm - Scotland
Wishart - Orkney
Shand - Aberdeen
Pirie - Aberdeen
ev
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Posts: 1885


TIA after her op. (clothes by "NIKKI") "dressed"
Re: Rothiesmay vs Portsoy Episcopal IGI confusion
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 24 June 09 13:20 UTC (UK) »
hi nick  Smiley

found a tree on rootsweb which maybe of interest -

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:2352807&id=I512577689

it has a death date for margaret 7th dec 1885 pitsligo and this seems to check
out on SP

ev
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census information crown copyright , from nationalarchives.gov.uk
scotlandspeople website
freecen website
Forfarian
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Posts: 700


I HAVE edited my profile - several times!
Re: Rothiesmay vs Portsoy Episcopal IGI confusion
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 05 July 09 10:23 UTC (UK) »
Quote from: nickgc on Tuesday 23 June 09 21:25 UTC (UK)
My 4x grt grandparents (Robt Shand & Jane (Jean) England) appear in what appears to be 2 registries.   

What is with the dual entry?  My guess is that the Rothiesmay entry (I have photocopy scan) is civil, and Portsoy Episcopal is the church the deed was done in.  Is this correct?  Or are they both the same?

No, that is not correct. They are both the same.

There is no such thing as civil registration before 1855. Therefore these are both church records.

Double entries in the church registars are not unusual, and what they generally tell you is that one of the couple lived in one parish and the other in another parish. You need to look at the originals to find out who lived in which parish. Does your Rothiemay extract say anything about that? NB it is Rothiemay, not Rothiesmay. Including the 's' could hamper your future research online Wink

There is another aspect to this particular example, which is that if the marriage was conducted in Portsoy, or one of the parties lived in the parish of Fordyce, it ought also to have been recorded in the Fordyce Church of Scotland registers, because the C of S was supposed to record all marriages in the parish, regardless of which denomination the actual ceremony was, or where it was held. However I know of several marriages in the Portsoy Episcopal registers which are not in the C of S register as they should be, so the probability is that the Fordyce parish clerk either did not know about the marriages, or failed to record them for some other reason.

It was normal for a wedding ceremony to be held in the bride's home, though if she was in service a long way from her parents' home or her parents were dead, it might be held in her employer's house or in the manse. Weddings in the church building itself were the exception rather than the rule. 

I see that the IGI also has a 'submitted' listing of the marriage in Speymouth. 'Submitted' listings can range from pure fantasy to information from family bibles, so they need to be treated with caution until you have tracked down and read the original source.

So you have a marriage which may have been recorded in three different places, and a string of missing baptisms. It would not surprise me to find that the children had been baptised into the Episcopal Church (note again that this does not necessarily mean that they were actually baptised in the church building).

All the IGI birth references to children of Robert Shand and Jean England are 'submitted' except that of Alexander, baptised in Tyrie on 21 December 1820.

As it happens, I have looked briefly at the England family in Speymouth on behalf of another researcher.  If you are interested in that, please PM me with your e-mail address as there's too much to post in this forum.
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nickgc
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Posts: 851


GGF J. James McLellan 1864-1908
Re: Rothiesmay vs Portsoy Episcopal IGI confusion
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 05 July 09 21:37 UTC (UK) »
Hello - Thak you both.

Ev - yes, this is one of the few trees that I have found that has some of my Aberdeen family included.  Have tried often to get in touch with him to no success.

Forfarian - thanks for the detailed explanation.  I had deduced some of this after getting some originals from SP a week ago, but it helps nevertheless.  The part regarding Fordyce and CofS registers is enlightening.

I had been stuck at Jane (Jean) England for almost 20 years.  Last week I (very) tentatively took her ancestry back another few generations, but am proceeding cautiously:

Possibility:

Jean (Jane) England b ca1780         
                       |     
Alexander England b 1756 m Christian Milne b ?
                       |
Robert England b 1728 m 1751 Agnes Garioch b ?
                       |
Wm England m 1715 Janet Allan

Speymouth makes sense and I will PM you.

Nick
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McLellan - Inverness
Greer - Renfrewshire
Manson - Aberdeen & Orkney
Simpson - Hereford, Devon, etc.
Flett - Orkney
Chisholm - Scotland
Wishart - Orkney
Shand - Aberdeen
Pirie - Aberdeen
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