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Author Topic: HOLMES James and Harriet 1871 cencus epsom  (Read 239 times)
jaytoot
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Posts: 241


Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
HOLMES James and Harriet 1871 cencus epsom
« on: Thursday 25 June 09 13:24 UTC (UK) »
Help Help Help Please Please Please. Now you see em - now you don't!

My great great grandparents are william Miley and Merella, They are in the census in 1891 and again in 1901 when they are at court farm warlingham. They are with a Spicer Cooper and Alexander Lee amongst others.

Merella sometimes recorded as moreta, Murilla or on a death listed as Muralli Miley on free bmd.

I recently got a birth certificate for one of the children and she is shown as Merella Homes (she just recorded a cross for her name).

In the 1891 census she gives a birthplace of kent, westerham.

I have found her in 1871 recorded as Merreld holmes with father James and mother Harriet but cannot find this family before or after 1871. They are with Coopers and Drapers.

The name Holmes does not sound like a traveller family so I wonder if any one has any knowledge of them - perhaps they are really Coopers. Given the age diffrences between James and Harriet she may be his second wife? There is a son listed who is too old to be Harriets child.

I've tried laterall thinking but i just keep falling asleep (lol).

Jim
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james - kent and surrey
Ayres - kent surrey
Smiths - kent surrey
Sparrowhawks - kent Surrey
RomanyRoser
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Posts: 66


Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Re: HOLMES James and Harriet 1871 cencus epsom
« Reply #1 on: Friday 26 June 09 01:27 UTC (UK) »
Hi Jim- Is Mirella part of the SMITH family- Roser
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jaytoot
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Posts: 241


Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Re: HOLMES James and Harriet 1871 cencus epsom
« Reply #2 on: Friday 26 June 09 06:53 UTC (UK) »
Hi,
I don't know if they are part of the smith family, i thought with a name like merella it was going to be easy to track down but no such luck.

Her daughter Christiana (Annie) goes on to marry Hiram Ayres and the witnesses are Frank Bird and Alice Cooper.
Her Other daughter Mariah (Maria) marries Henry Ayres and the witnesses are Thomas Cooper and Fanny Smith.

So 2 slight links to Coopers and 1 for a Smith.

jim
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james - kent and surrey
Ayres - kent surrey
Smiths - kent surrey
Sparrowhawks - kent Surrey
RomanyRoser
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 66


Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Re: HOLMES James and Harriet 1871 cencus epsom
« Reply #3 on: Friday 26 June 09 07:04 UTC (UK) »
Hi Jim- I have these people in my Data Base .This Mirelli who married a Smith was Mirelli Draper. If you get back to me in a couple of weeks, I will have more time to have a look through some other documents that I have for you- Jan
SMITH Mira  1846 Son  N.K., Fersidney SMITH 1855 Son N.K, Leannah SMITH 1849 dtr N.K.
SMITH Mireli (Ref PAGE 119; Gypsies in Britain” Author Brian Vesey-FitzGerald,  published late 1930s
SMITH Mireny 1854 Mar James & Trepany (Tramper), (Tinman) , (Brazier) Cholsey, Oxfordshire
DRAPER Mirelli (Ref page110; 112; 119;  “Gypsies in Britain” Author Brian Vesey-FitzGerald,  published late 1930s)
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CitizenSmith
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Posts: 143


Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Re: HOLMES James and Harriet 1871 cencus epsom
« Reply #4 on: Friday 26 June 09 10:14 UTC (UK) »
Hi

The Mirella Draper who married a Smith (Ambrose) is my 4xgreat-grandmother. So I have a lot of info to share if it's useful - though her baptism still eludes me. She was born c1791.

There was another Mirella/Marella/Morella who was a contemporary of the one above - this one was a Smith who married Ferdinand Smith, brother of Ambrose, in Wells-by-the-Sea, Norfolk, in 1803.

You're right - Holmes doesn't immediately strike one as a Traveller name. But it could be the name of a non-Gypsy man who married into the Gypsy community. Or perhaps - as you say - an alias.

I've never had much luck trying to identify the Drapers who were camped with your Holmes in 1871 - so perhaps they're using an alias too. One of the children is called 'Belcher' and this name is often associated with Lees: a clue perhaps?

Best wishes

Sharon
Logged
Smith - East Anglia & Lancashire
Taylor - East Anglia
Draper
Hope
Shaw
Gray
Boswell
Lovell
Robinson
Chilcott
All Blackpool Gypsies
"Royal Epping Forest Gypsies": ball-giving group
CitizenSmith
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Posts: 143


Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Re: HOLMES James and Harriet 1871 cencus epsom
« Reply #5 on: Friday 26 June 09 12:39 UTC (UK) »
Hi again Jim

I've just managed to look up the name Holmes in Bob Dawson's book 'Gypsy Names for Genealogists: Surnames'.

It's listed there - with Bob citing that he's found Traveller refs to it (spelt both Holmes and Homes) from 1638 to the present day in the counties of Essex, London, Lincolnshire, Northern Ireland, Norfolk, Nottinghamshire, Shropshire, Suffolk, Sussex and Yorkshire.

Best wishes

Sharon
Logged
Smith - East Anglia & Lancashire
Taylor - East Anglia
Draper
Hope
Shaw
Gray
Boswell
Lovell
Robinson
Chilcott
All Blackpool Gypsies
"Royal Epping Forest Gypsies": ball-giving group
jaytoot
RootsChat Member
***
Posts: 241


Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Re: HOLMES James and Harriet 1871 cencus epsom
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 28 June 09 07:41 UTC (UK) »
Thanks for your replies.

It is hard to track down anyone on these pages.

The first names for the Draper is very hard to read and transcribed Jesery (strange). I think the son Belcher is a Cooper because free bmd has a birth of Belcher Cooper 1867 Reigate, which is a pretty good match with the census document. I can't find anything for Countsalifie though!

I had been under the impression that this side of my family were irish tinkers from Cork but thought that was the Mileys but it turns out they came from Dublin according to the census and no sign of the family travelling or tinkering.
The picture on the left is my nan Vertina James and my grandad James Miley outside of the charrabang that they lived on in shepperton.
There is no record of a marriage of Merella to William miley so it's going to be a struggle.

What info can i expect to see on a death certificate from the 1930's i am wondering if there would be anything of use by obtaining it.

Thanks again,

Jim
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james - kent and surrey
Ayres - kent surrey
Smiths - kent surrey
Sparrowhawks - kent Surrey
CitizenSmith
RootsChat Member
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Posts: 143


Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Re: HOLMES James and Harriet 1871 cencus epsom
« Reply #7 on: Monday 29 June 09 07:15 UTC (UK) »
Hi Jim

I read the forename of this adult Draper as 'Orsery'. That's a name you find a lot among the Grays in and around Cambridgeshire - which is odd considering that this Draper gives his birthplace as Newmarket, Cambs.

On the death cert question, an English or Welsh death cert from the 1930s will give you:

- date and place of death
- name of deceased
- their age
- occupation
- occupation may be replaced by 'wife of' or 'widow of' if it's the cert of a married woman
- cause of death and whether or not it was certified by a doctor
- name of person registering the death and their address, sometimes with their relationship to the deceased. (Could be a coroner if the death was accidental or unexpected.)
- date of registration of the death

Unfortunately, you don't get the maiden name of a married woman on certs at this period.

Best wishes

Sharon

Logged
Smith - East Anglia & Lancashire
Taylor - East Anglia
Draper
Hope
Shaw
Gray
Boswell
Lovell
Robinson
Chilcott
All Blackpool Gypsies
"Royal Epping Forest Gypsies": ball-giving group
jaytoot
RootsChat Member
***
Posts: 241


Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Re: HOLMES James and Harriet 1871 cencus epsom
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 30 June 09 06:00 UTC (UK) »
Hi Sharron,

thanks for the information regarding the death certificate. I don't think I will bother getting that.

I think the Draper group here are going to be difficult unless someone from that family comes along doing their family tree.

Thanks,

Jim
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james - kent and surrey
Ayres - kent surrey
Smiths - kent surrey
Sparrowhawks - kent Surrey
CitizenSmith
RootsChat Member
***
Posts: 143


Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Re: HOLMES James and Harriet 1871 cencus epsom
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 30 June 09 06:08 UTC (UK) »
Hi Jim

You're welcome.

And one day I just might invest in that Belcher Cooper birth cert. This family has been puzzling me for ages.

Best wishes

Sharon
Logged
Smith - East Anglia & Lancashire
Taylor - East Anglia
Draper
Hope
Shaw
Gray
Boswell
Lovell
Robinson
Chilcott
All Blackpool Gypsies
"Royal Epping Forest Gypsies": ball-giving group
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