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Topic: lost siblings (Read 283 times)
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colcal
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 67
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hello! I have searched and searched for my father in laws half siblings, all born and lived in Bridgeton, Glasgow. The parents were Hugh Donnelly and Sarah Ann (Kivlochan) Donnelly. The siblings were Mary Donnelly born in 1900, Sarah Donnelly born in 1904, Rose Ann Donnelly born in 1906, James Donnelly born in 1909 and Martin Donnelly born in 1910. I have birth certificates for them all and they were all named on a poor law application form made by their mother in 1910 when she separated from her husband, but have not shown up on any marriage or death certificate. It stated that did not go into the poor house and they did not emigrate because their mother died in 1926 in Duke Street Hospital. I have also looked for marriage and death certs in most other countries, but nothing for any of them. How can they all dissapear! If anyone has any ideas on why they all cannot be found, I would be really gratefull.
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Flickgirl
RootsChat Member
Posts: 226
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hi Colcal,
Have you been to the National Archives or Park Circus to search for them or have you been using the Scotland's People website - I ask because you can only search marriages up until 1933 on the website and several of your Donnelly's if not all of them may have married after this date.
Also if you have an address of where they were staying on Martin's birth certificate you could perhaps check voters rolls to see when they left that address. Who registered their mother's death in 1926? If you've not tried to trace Sarah's sisters/brothers it may be worth doing as it may give you some clues. It can be so frustrating when people just seem to disappear off the face of the earth - good luck.
Regards
Michelle
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Leonard/Lennon/Lennan (Lanarkshire, Ireland, Australia) Kelly (Lanarkshire, Stirlingshire, Clackmannanshire) Campbell (Leith, Glasgow, New York, Australia) McMaster (Stirlingshire, Ireland) Cullen (Lanarkshire)
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colcal
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 67
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hello Michelle,
Thank you for your reply to my query, you are so amazing to find what you did in such a short time. I have spent a fortune and many hours on S.P and have not found what you have. I have looked into the James Kelly Kivlochan who died in Selkirk and found a marriage for him in 1932 (if it is him). I am really confused at the marriage cert as it is so close to a match, but not quite and would like to pick your thought further. His date of birth is 1909, but on the certificate it says he is 22yrs which makes it one year adrift. I can understand him using Kivlochan (his mothers maiden name) as his father left them when he was only 1yrs, but he is down as James Kelly MacDonald. What I do not understand is the parents name on the cert are his grandparents Martin and Mary Kivlochan. Her maiden name was Degnan and was given as Kelly, plus they both died before 1878 and deceased was not recorded on the cert. Do you think he might have been adopted by the family MacDonald and guessed at his parentage?
I haven't looked into Martin yet i will check that now. What is strange though is when the mother Sarah Ann Donnelly died in 1926, her daughter Sarah registered the death giving her current address as 42, Wilkes lane Dundee, which is St Josephs Church. She lived there for 3 years 1926-1929 and then dissapeared.
regards colcal
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Flickgirl
RootsChat Member
Posts: 226
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hi Colcal,
I've also spent a fortune on SP over the years and only through trial and error have I got quite good at searching and getting the most out of each search; there's a good guide on here on how to optimize searches: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,43916.0.html.
My first thought when I read your query was that the missing siblings might have used their mother's name hence why I looked for Kivlochans. The fact that the father left when they were 1 year old makes this quite likely I would think.
I wouldn't read too much into the age given on the marriage certificate - if it's only a year out that's not a reason to rule it out as I've come across many marriage certificates on which people have given ages that were 5 and even 10 years out! I'm afraid I don't think the James Kelly Kivlochan is your James Donnelly though - a Martin Kivlochan married a Mary Kelly in Hutchesontown in Glasgow in 1905. I believe these were his parents. It seems likely his father Martin was related to Sarah Ann in some way but it can't be taken for granted that they were. He could easily be Sarah's brother. When you say James is down as James Kelly McDonald on his marriage certificate do you mean McDonald is given as his surname, not Kivlochan? Adoption didn't come into being in Scotland until 1930 but I've often seen people use the name of a step-father for example on a marriage certificate.
The fact that Sarah's daughter Sarah lived in Dundee for several years is interesting as there is a Kivlochan family in Dundee in the early 1900s according to a couple of deaths and a birth.
Regards
Michelle
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Leonard/Lennon/Lennan (Lanarkshire, Ireland, Australia) Kelly (Lanarkshire, Stirlingshire, Clackmannanshire) Campbell (Leith, Glasgow, New York, Australia) McMaster (Stirlingshire, Ireland) Cullen (Lanarkshire)
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Flickgirl
RootsChat Member
Posts: 226
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Can I just ask why you think Martin and Mary, Sarah's parents, were dead prior to 1878? It's just I think I've found them on the 1881 census with the whole family living in Hutchesontown, Glasgow:
Martin Kivlochan 47 Born Ireland c.1834 Iron Labourer
Mary Kivlochan wife 42 Born Ireland c.1839
Hugh Kivlochan 19 Born Glasgow c.1862 Rivetter
Annie Kivlochan 16 Born Glasgow c.1865 Cotton Spinner
Patrick Kivlochan 12 Born Glasgow c.1869 Scholar
Mary A Kivlochan 9 Born Glasgow c.1872 Scholar
Sarah Kivlochan 3 Born Glasgow c.1878 Scholar
Regards
Michelle
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Leonard/Lennon/Lennan (Lanarkshire, Ireland, Australia) Kelly (Lanarkshire, Stirlingshire, Clackmannanshire) Campbell (Leith, Glasgow, New York, Australia) McMaster (Stirlingshire, Ireland) Cullen (Lanarkshire)
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Flickgirl
RootsChat Member
Posts: 226
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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I think I've also found the birth entry for James Kelly Kivlochan now - James Kivlochan born Hutchesontown 1909. I'll list the other Kivlochan births I think may be of interest to you:
George Kivlochan Born Calton 1896
Catherine F Kivlochan (born 1897)
Patrick Kivlochan Born Hutchesontown 1899
James Kivlochan Born Hutchesontown 1900
Martin Kivlochan Born Hutchesontown 1905
Robert Kelly Kivlochan Hutchesontown 1907 (must be James Kelly's brother)
Daniel M Kivlochan Born Dennistoun 1918
John Kivlochan Born St Andrew, Dundee City/Angus 1900
Here are some death records that may be of interest too:
George Kivlochan died aged 0 1897 Bridgeton
Mary Kivlochan died aged 36 1906 Lochee Dundee City/Angus
Patrick Kivlochan died aged 0 1904 Lochee Dundee City/Angus
Patrick Kivlochan died aged 5 1892 Hutchesontown
Patrick Kivlochan died aged 0 1899 Hutchesontown
Robert Kelly Kivlochan died aged 1 1908 Hutchesontown
Daniel Kivlochan died aged 0 1918 Dennistoun
Regards
Michelle
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Leonard/Lennon/Lennan (Lanarkshire, Ireland, Australia) Kelly (Lanarkshire, Stirlingshire, Clackmannanshire) Campbell (Leith, Glasgow, New York, Australia) McMaster (Stirlingshire, Ireland) Cullen (Lanarkshire)
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colcal
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 67
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi again!
I'm sorry if i am boring you to bits, but it is so nice to have some help and i have been searching all afternoon going around in circles with such near misses. In answer to your question,sorry i have it wrong, Sarah Ann's parents were entered as deseased on her marriage cert in 1898. Her father Martin Kivlochan was a mason labourer and he lived with his wife Mary (nee Degnan) in Hutchestown. What is a coinsidence is i down loaded a birth cert for Martin Kivlochan born in 1905 and he was deemed as illegitimate but his father was listed as Martin Kivlochan mason labourer and mother Mary Kelly, living in Hutchestown. Then I looked at James Kelly (Kivlochan)'s marriage in 1932 and the same father Martin is now deceased, the mother must of married him cause she is down as the widow of Martin, but James is down as James Kelly MacDonald. So, all i can think of is perhaps Martin and Mary Kivlochan, Sarah Ann's mum and dad had a son Martin who like his father became a mason labourer and lived in Hutchestown, but there are no other Martin Kivlochans born in the year range to father the two boys. I am going to try S.P again and try some different combinations.
regards colcal
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colcal
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 67
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi!
Sorry but I only recieved your post after i had sent mine. Yes it all points to the father Martin, b 1885 being Sarah Ann's brother, I just did not have him on my list for that family. It seems so confusing to me why Sarah Ann named her children James and Martin as her brother had already chosen those names for his children. I will follow up the names you sent me for the Kivlochans in Dundee and see if i can find anything for Sarah, the daughter. Thank you so much again
regards colcal
p.s you mentioned Archive and Park Circus are they on line for searches.
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Flickgirl
RootsChat Member
Posts: 226
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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It seems so confusing to me why Sarah Ann named her children James and Martin as her brother had already chosen those names for his children. p.s you mentioned Archive and Park Circus are they on line for searches.
Hi Colcal,
I'm afraid it was the norm for siblings to name their children the same names - if you find the families for Sarah Ann's other siblings you'll probably find they all have a James and Martin too!
I'm afraid the only place online that you can search for Scottish certificates is through the ScotlandsPeople website. The National Archives are in Edinburgh; the family history search rooms are now called the ScotlandsPeople Centre and you can learn about it here:
http://www.scotlandspeoplehub.gov.uk/
Park Circus is the equivalent in Glasgow but is much smaller and you have to book up quite a bit in advance. You can visit both for a day pass fee (£10 for Edinburgh/£14 for Glasgow) and search the records there on a computer terminal - you can search all the records that the SP website has but, crucially, you can also search for marriages after 1933 and see the images as well as see the images for births after 1908 and deaths after 1958 (all of which you can't do on the SP website; you'll probably have noticed it says No Image next to records after those dates.) I think if you could search at the Archives or get someone who could search for you, you might well find marriages for Sarah's children.
Regards
Michelle
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Leonard/Lennon/Lennan (Lanarkshire, Ireland, Australia) Kelly (Lanarkshire, Stirlingshire, Clackmannanshire) Campbell (Leith, Glasgow, New York, Australia) McMaster (Stirlingshire, Ireland) Cullen (Lanarkshire)
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