|
Pages: [1]
|
 |
|
Author
|
Topic: completed (Read 326 times)
|
lindsayH
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 47
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
 |
completed
« on: Monday 29 June 09 05:23 UTC (UK) » |
|
Hello.
I am trying to find if Edith Hyde, brn Fairfield (Chapel en-le'frith) in 1878 ever married. She was the illigitimate daughter child of Sarah Ann Hyde (Fairfield, 1857). Sarah Anna Hyde is the daughter of Thomas Hyde (1835) & Hannah Hyde (nee Proctor 1837).
I have exhausted all avenues of inernet family history resources and am now getting confused myself!. Sarah Ann Hyde also had two sons, George and Thomas who also have no father details listed on their birth certificates, Thomas being my GG grandfather and the lineage to my Hyde surname given I dont know the surname of Thomas's father..my G grandfather
So i am looking for a link to Edith's lineage as a possibility of gathering more info in this missing surname quandary.
Can any one help pls and shed some light and perhaps look up at local parish for marriage details of Edith Hyde..if they exist?
Very much appreciated...for anything.
Lindsay....Australia
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: Thursday 03 September 09 23:44 UTC (UK) by lindsayH »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
posteria
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 607
|
Hello
This could be a complete red herring, but in the absence of anything else ....
I can see Edith Hyde on the 1881 and 1891 censuses. I cannot see her under that name in 1901. However, in 1901 an Edith Proctor, aged 22, from Buxton is a Servant at 3 The Grove, Fairfield, Buxton.
I cannot see an Edith Proctor born at Fairfield (or Buxton) on the 1881 or the 1891 censuses. There is no birth registration in Chapel en le Frith for an Edith Proctor during the 1870s. The only birth registered in Derbyshire during that period for the name Edith Proctor was in Hayfield and that person appears with her parents on the 1881-1911 censuses ... mainly in Cheshire.
In the last quarter of 1902 an Edith Proctor was married in the Chapel en le Frith registration area. The GRO reference is 7b 1710 - www.freebmd.org.uk/ One of the possible grooms is listed as an Edward Hilton.
On the 1911 census index - www.1911census.co.uk/ there is an Edith Hilton aged 35 who was born at Fairfield and she is married to an Edwin Hilton with two children called Edith Alice aged 2 and Harold aged 3 months. The family live somewhere in Fairfield.
From the above information, it is possible to conjecture that your Edith Hyde might have been listed as Edith Proctor after 1891 and that she might have married, under that name, in 1902 to Mr E Hilton.
If nothing else turns up, it might be worth some further investigation.
posteria
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: Thursday 02 July 09 11:59 UTC (UK) by posteria »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
lindsayH
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 47
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
What a great piece of detective work!....thanks.
I saw the possible link with Edwin/Edward Hilton but could not work out the surname that the Edith had and thought that the two names Edwin and Edward was all to hard for me to figure out!
But Ediths Grand mother (Hannah- Sarah Ann Hyde's mother) maiden name is Proctor and it sounds like 2 of Sarah's children for some reason took this Proctor surname even though Hannahs marriage to Thomas Hyde in 1855 was legitimate but Thomas died in 1869. Both Edith & George used the Proctor surname through their liuves, Richard used the Hyde surname throughout his life.
It does make sense and will persue this avenue with Edith being listed as a Proctor post 1891.
Any ideas on how I might track down Ediths father....he is not listed on her birth certificate (nor George or Richards) which I have a copy of?
Thank you very much
Lindsay
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
lindsayH
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 47
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi posteria....found the entry for Edwin and Edith Hilton on the 1911 census but cannot see the children listed??
Also found the entry for Edith Proctor on 1901 census listed as a servent....I had eyed this entry before but didnt put 2 and 2 together until your email...
The address does match up as most of the Hyde's and Proctors lived around New High St, Alma st and Fairfield rd around the 1800's so strong connection there.
Jus gotta track down Edith father and I'll be happy!
Thanks once again.
Lindsay
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
posteria
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 607
|
Hello Lindsay
You are correct about the two children on the 1911 census. On checking further, the two that I mentioned actually belong to a different Edith Hilton. Please disregard those two names, with my apologies. (I have crossed them out on my original post above).
From looking at the birth registrations on www.freebmd.org.uk/ it might be that Edwin and Edith were just expecting a birth because a Mary Hilton was registered in the third quarter of 1911 at Chapel en le Frith with a mother’s maiden name of Proctor.
If none of the birth certificates for the children of Sarah Ann show a father and there are no middle names to suggest who he might have been, it will be extremely difficult to ascertain who he was. On Edith’s marriage certificate she might give a name for her father but it might not really be him. In the circumstances, it is more likely to be just a name (perhaps of a grandparent) given for the sake of making the register look respectable.
The (apparent) fact that Edith and George used the name Proctor in later life might suggest that their father (if it is the same person) was called that and was perhaps a cousin of Sarah Ann or they might have simply chosen to use that name because they lived in a Proctor household for most of their young lives.
There is also a slight possibility that the father, whoever he was, might have been required to pay some money towards the children’s upkeep. If you do a search (via Google or similar) for the words “Bastardy Order” you should find a bit of general information about them. You might then be able to check if any such orders were made in Fairfield.
posteria
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
lindsayH
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 47
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Thank you once again posteria. You have been very helpful and I appreciate your help.
I will look up the bastadry order stuff you have suggested and take it from there....It would be good to close this loop of the surname. Do you think that it unusual or common for a person to have 3 children where no father details are left on the birth for these times? Or was my G grandmother just a bit of a tart!!
I have also thought of the link with Sarah Ann and the Proctor surname and in particular her cousin Francis Proctor who she lived with on the 1891 census but seperates after this time (and after the births of George and Richard) and moves to board with the 'Doxey's' in the 1901 census with Richard, leaving George to contiune to live with Francis from this point on. George (Sarah's second born) lived with Francis for most of his life until he died from wounds recieved in WW1 on 4.4.1917 with 'Mr Proctor' being mentioned as Georges father of '16 New High St Buxton' in a newspaper article published in April 1917 on Georges death in Buxton (attached). I assumed that the Mr Proctor being referred to in this article in 1917 was Francis Proctor.
I checked the occupants of this address on the 1911 census and it shows that this address is occupied at this time by Francis's daughter, Emma who is married to Edward Epperman (who was living with Francis Proctor in 1891. Francis Proctor in 1911 is living with the 'Windlows' at 61 Queens rd Fairfield and listed a a widower as he was on the 189 & 1901 census. It maybe that Francis moved from Queens rd sometime after 1911 to move in with his daughter at New High St aound the period from 1911 to 1917 as mentioned in the news article. Wish I could find out more about this 1917 period and ask the neighbours at number 15 who lived next door!!
Francis was married to a Mary up until around the 1891 census where Mary is no where to be seen so assumed she died at some time between 1881 and 1891 (there is a death listing for Mary Proctor 33 years old on bmd for Dec 1885, Chapel en le frith) George and Richard where born between the 1891 and 1901 dates and Sarah was living with Francis at this time...coincidence that Francis looked after Sarah, George and Richard. Francis died in 1924 (Francis was bording with the Windlows in 1911) and Sarah Ann and Richard were boarding with 'Gorden/Corden' in Heaton Place, Fairfield in 1911 so both had seperated at this time around 1911.
Hope i havent bored you but does this make sense to you?
Regards.
Lindsay
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
posteria
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 607
|
Do you think that it unusual or common for a person to have 3 children where no father details are left on the birth for these times?
Hello Lindsay
I do not think that the scenario which seems to have applied with Sarah Ann and her children was all that unusual. There will not be too many researchers of family history who haven't encountered something similar, at least once.
I would think that Francis Proctor could be a good candidate to have been the father of George (and possibly also Edith) but I do not know if it will ever be conclusively proven. I would not have thought that Francis would be the father of Richard. It would seem very odd for Sarah and Richard to be living apart from Francis in 1901 if he were. I cannot see any evidence that Richard lived in the same property as Francis. Sarah could have left any time after the 1891 census.
Whilst I suggested that an entry for Father on Edith's marriage certificate might not be reliable, if there was an entry for Father on Richard's marriage certificate, that one might be reliable. Richard seems to have spent more time with his mother than George did (... although the censuses were ten years apart and the apparent evidence of just two or three census days might not necessarily be representative of the situation during the intervening periods ...) and he might have discussed the matter with Sarah when he was old enough. If you do not already have Richard's marriage certificate, it might be worth getting, to see if he does specify who his father was. You called him Thomas in the opening post, by the way.
Electoral Registers were not produced during the First World War years but you could consider asking for someone, who now lives in the area where the Fairfield registers are kept, to have a look at particular addresses before and after the war to find out who was living there (who had the right to vote). This might be almost as good as “asking the neighbours”.
The registers are arranged in street name order and they cannot be searched effectively by person's names but if you have the actual addresses, someone from this site might go and have a look, if you ask, or you could write to the appropriate Library and ask if the staff would look for you. The information would probably not help directly in determining who the father(s) of Sarah Ann’s children were but it would be interesting to know and it might tell you exactly which address Francis was in each year.
posteria
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
lindsayH
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 47
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Thanks for your eply posteria...once again you have very valuable info to help me as a novice!....I appreciate.
I will get a copy of Richards marriage cert to see if there is an entry for his father..its worth the 7 pounds i guess. There were no details of the father of any of Sarah's children on the birth certs I have obtained.....it may also be worth getting ahold of Ediths marriage cert also for curiosity.
In relation to he electrol roles for the period. Where would these roles be held for the Fairfield area? What period do you think i should ask for electrol roles for the New High St address? ( i want to be sure if I am going to bother anyone i at least get the time right!).
Sarah died in 1928 when Richard was abt 28 so it may be that he an she did discuss the father issue but non of this information wsa passed onto my father or any of his siblings as far as we are aware.....Richard wife , Elsie died when my father was young (abt 1940-45..still have to check).
All of my fathers siblings are deceased....except for 2 older sisters who I am trying to track down and who left Richard when my dad was 2 or 3 years old and left Richard when he got very sick from the war and Elsie had died...thay didnt want to hang around to take care of Richard and the family.
Anyway...thanks for all your help.
I will wait for you suggestions on some times for the electrolrole look up and make a posting for some help or contact the library (which one?) where they are held.
I have attached the article which i forgot to attach in the last messge.
Regards.
Linday
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: Friday 14 August 09 04:53 UTC (UK) by lindsayH »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1]
|
|
|
|
|
