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Topic: Albert Wm Smith (Read 473 times)
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Tippin
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 786
Albert William Smith, A True Hero
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Hi,
I am looking for information about my great grandfather, Albert William Smith (see left).
I visited Kew a few weeks back, and have found out that his army records were destroyed during WWII. I would like to know where I can go from here to try and find out where he was stationed etc during his time in the army.
I believe that he was underage when he signed up (he would have been 18 in 1898), and served during the 2nd Boer War, and First World War.
He is with his parents on the 1911 census, and his occupation is just Brass Caster, so he may have left the army by then and signed up again.
I think I have found his WWI medal card, which tells me he was in the South Staffs regiment, and that he signed up in 1915, discharged 1917, and first served at Gallipolli.
How can I fill in the gaps??
Tippin
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Adams (War), Archer (Dby), Bannister (Dby), Bromley / Bramley (Dby), Carpenter (Lon/War), Corbett (Dby/Lei/Sts), Darrall (War/Shr), Field (War), Florence (Sts/Shr), Freeman (War), Grimsdell (Sts/Buk), Jorden (War), Knight (War), Parker (Sts/Shr), Pinches (Her), Simpson (Sts), Smith (War), Southall (Wor, Sts), Tatham (Wor/Lon), Tippin / Tippins (War/Her), Wagstaff (Not/Dby/Sts/Lei), Whitefoot (War/Shr), Williams (Dby/Han), Wrench (Sts), Wyatt (War/Sts)
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mmm45
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3062
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Tippin
Do you have his Service Number?
To start with you will need to find which Battalion he was serving with.If you have definately got the right Smiths Medal Index Card his Medal Roll Book at Kew would have told you which battalion he was with.Also if he was discharged then he should have "list" or "swb" on his Medal Index Card
This list is also searchable at Kew and will give dates of enlistment discharge reason etc.
If he had a break in Service he may have another record at Kew in the pre 1913 series but as you have found his ww1 record didnt survive the bombing in 1940.
There are Boer War experts who can help on here...he certainly looks to have boer war ribbons on his ww1 tunic so may be on a Medal Roll for one of the KSA/QSA Medals.
Ady
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Tippin
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 786
Albert William Smith, A True Hero
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Hi Ady,
I am 90 % sure I have the right medal card. I know from his eldest son's birth certificate that he was a corporal (lance-corporal on photo), in one of the Stafford regiments. I have gone through the medal cards and the only lance-corporal/corporal in the Staffords is the following;
Albert W Smith - South Staffords Regiment - Pte, later La/Cpl - Regt No: 5730.
In the remarks space, it has Dis. 8.10.17. I thought this was the date of discharge, am I right? The medal card does not have either list or swb on.
While I was at Kew, I did go through the earlier records, but he was not there. I persumed that the records would have been re-used if he signed up again, or would it be more likley that he went into the reserves and was called up in 1915? But if this was the case, why was he not called up in 1914?
Regards,
Tippin
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Adams (War), Archer (Dby), Bannister (Dby), Bromley / Bramley (Dby), Carpenter (Lon/War), Corbett (Dby/Lei/Sts), Darrall (War/Shr), Field (War), Florence (Sts/Shr), Freeman (War), Grimsdell (Sts/Buk), Jorden (War), Knight (War), Parker (Sts/Shr), Pinches (Her), Simpson (Sts), Smith (War), Southall (Wor, Sts), Tatham (Wor/Lon), Tippin / Tippins (War/Her), Wagstaff (Not/Dby/Sts/Lei), Whitefoot (War/Shr), Williams (Dby/Han), Wrench (Sts), Wyatt (War/Sts)
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mmm45
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3062
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Tippin
Theres two Medal Index Cards for 5730 Smith One to A W and one to William.I havent got Ancestry access at present to check them i got this info off the NA MIC search.
The number is early pre war or Territorial as its 4 Digits Both South Staffs Regiment.
Let me know what you find on the William card.
Dis is is discharge date.Did you have a look at the Medal Rolls for an enlistment date that would have given you a good idea if it was your man?
Ady 
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Tippin
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 786
Albert William Smith, A True Hero
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Hi Ady,
I have just signed up for Ancestry, and got the 2nd medal card. The date of discharge is the same so it has got to be the same person. It also gives me his date of enlistment, which was August 1899, so my Albert would have been 18 - not exactly under age, but it is as close as you can get.
The only problem is, I have no idea what the this medal card is applying for.
The first bit of information I do not understand is under the Casue of Discharge heading. It says:
S.
A.0 265/17
2.B.I.
Then under the (a) Badge part of the card, it says LB 2809.
And finaly at the bottom is says;
List 7/122/2
Badge no 282828 found by Ch Constable.
Any help with this would be great. I have no idea what it means, and I want to find out about him.
When I was down at Kew, I did not go through the medal rolls. I did not think they would give me much information. But it now looks like I will have to pay another visit, and go through all the William Smith's, just in case he is in there.
Regards,
Tippin
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Adams (War), Archer (Dby), Bannister (Dby), Bromley / Bramley (Dby), Carpenter (Lon/War), Corbett (Dby/Lei/Sts), Darrall (War/Shr), Field (War), Florence (Sts/Shr), Freeman (War), Grimsdell (Sts/Buk), Jorden (War), Knight (War), Parker (Sts/Shr), Pinches (Her), Simpson (Sts), Smith (War), Southall (Wor, Sts), Tatham (Wor/Lon), Tippin / Tippins (War/Her), Wagstaff (Not/Dby/Sts/Lei), Whitefoot (War/Shr), Williams (Dby/Han), Wrench (Sts), Wyatt (War/Sts)
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forester
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1879
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Hello Tippin,
It's a strange co-incidence, if they are not the same man.
The William Smith MIC is for the SWB.
Army Order 265, published August 1917.
"S" normally refers to sickness.
I don't know how 2B1 corresponds with the Para 392 sub-paragraphs.
It also looks as if you have the actual badge number, which appears to have been lost and handed in. I have seen this on SWB cards before.
Phil
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mmm45
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3062
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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2BI is an "other rank" with overseas service....AO 265/17 is Army Order 265 of 1917
I ve found reference to it a lot of times on SWB cards.The SWB Card is searchable at Kew but doubt youll get more info than you have....His numbered SWB looks to have been found by the police...Chester Constabulary??
As Phil has stated S is for sickness if there was a W it would be due to wounds.
Ady
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km1971
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2702
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Tippin
If the WW1 medal card says he enlisted in 1899 it is likely that his Boer War service was with his WW1 papers, and hence lost during the Blitz. As Ady says the ribbons look like they are from the Boer War.
If he went into the Army Reserve in say 1906, he would have been discharged in 1911, but he may then have gone into another class of AR (see below). If so, it means they kept the same set of papers, and the same number. If a reservist had a civilian job they usually did not record that they were in the AR on certificates, census etc.
http://www.1914-1918.net/reserve.htm
The South Staffs would have had a few numbering sequences in use at the same, and 5730 could well be for a Regular who enlisted in 1899. It could also be for a Special Reservist or Territorial from c1913-14.
A check of the QSA medal roll in Kew will confirm this if this was his regular number. They are on microfilm in WO100. You may be lucky and find a South Staffs specialist on the British Medal Forum has printed it off. One thing you have to watch though is that he may be down as just 'A Smith'.
The AW card says A/Cpl, ie Acting Corporal. The cross next to it shows that this would have been impressed on his VM and BWM. The 1914-1915 Star would have his rank as Private.The date for ‘entering theatre’ does not match exactly with any battalion. But he was likely to have been a replacement for the 7th (Service) Battalion - http://www.1914-1918.net/sstaffs.htm. They were new army, so he was obviously added to give them a bit of experience.
Either of the two medal rolls or SWB roll will have his battalion. But again that means another trip to Kew.
I cannot find the William Smith card on Ancestry.
Ken
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forester
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1879
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Ken,
If you just enter Smith and 5730, it's the 11th of 11 hits.
Phil
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km1971
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2702
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks Phil
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Tippin
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 786
Albert William Smith, A True Hero
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Hi,
Thanks for the information. I have been away for a week or so, so have only just been able to check the information provided.
It does look like another trip to Kew. Just one (now two) last question(s), why does the one card say Albert W Smith, and the other just William Smith? Could this sugest that he signed up as just William Smith? That would mean his records may still survive. And why would the army call him by two different names?
Also, Acting Corporal - would that be two stripes on his arm? I thought that a corporal was a step up from a Lance Corporal, and a step below a Sargeant. That would suggest that he is not my man. The picture only has one strip.
Regards,
Tippin
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Adams (War), Archer (Dby), Bannister (Dby), Bromley / Bramley (Dby), Carpenter (Lon/War), Corbett (Dby/Lei/Sts), Darrall (War/Shr), Field (War), Florence (Sts/Shr), Freeman (War), Grimsdell (Sts/Buk), Jorden (War), Knight (War), Parker (Sts/Shr), Pinches (Her), Simpson (Sts), Smith (War), Southall (Wor, Sts), Tatham (Wor/Lon), Tippin / Tippins (War/Her), Wagstaff (Not/Dby/Sts/Lei), Whitefoot (War/Shr), Williams (Dby/Han), Wrench (Sts), Wyatt (War/Sts)
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mmm45
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3062
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Tippin
He would have had to be a LCpl before Acting Corporal so the photo would have been taken then
His records may survive it could more than likely be a clerical error...or he was known as William in the Army??
The MICs are full of clerical errors.( loks like Kews calling  )
Ady
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Tippin
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 786
Albert William Smith, A True Hero
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Thanks for all the information.
It does look like I will have to travel back down to Kew.
Thanks once again for all the info - and don't be surprised to see me asking more questions once I have managed to get down to London!
Regards,
Tippin
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Adams (War), Archer (Dby), Bannister (Dby), Bromley / Bramley (Dby), Carpenter (Lon/War), Corbett (Dby/Lei/Sts), Darrall (War/Shr), Field (War), Florence (Sts/Shr), Freeman (War), Grimsdell (Sts/Buk), Jorden (War), Knight (War), Parker (Sts/Shr), Pinches (Her), Simpson (Sts), Smith (War), Southall (Wor, Sts), Tatham (Wor/Lon), Tippin / Tippins (War/Her), Wagstaff (Not/Dby/Sts/Lei), Whitefoot (War/Shr), Williams (Dby/Han), Wrench (Sts), Wyatt (War/Sts)
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Tippin
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 786
Albert William Smith, A True Hero
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Hi,
Just a quick re-cap. I have now visited Kew again, but it has brought up more questions! - I will have to list them later, as I am currently at work and have not got the info in front of me - but hopefully somebody will reply and remind me to do it tonight!!
First of all, as suggested above, Albert was in the 7th Battalion, South Staffords. The medal roll for the BWM and VM gives me his full name - Albert William Smith - FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have also looked through the QSM & KSM rolls, and he is there on both as AW Smith, with the same number - so I guess they kept the same records when he signed up/was called up for WWI. With the QSM, he got the Wittbergen Clasp. I know from googling it that it was for service between 1-29 July 1900, but what battles could he have been in??
I also now believe that the Silver Badge Roll is wrong. It gives the correct number, but does have him down as William Smith. It also gives his age as 33 (not 36/37), so he would have been 15 when he signed up!
Tippin
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Adams (War), Archer (Dby), Bannister (Dby), Bromley / Bramley (Dby), Carpenter (Lon/War), Corbett (Dby/Lei/Sts), Darrall (War/Shr), Field (War), Florence (Sts/Shr), Freeman (War), Grimsdell (Sts/Buk), Jorden (War), Knight (War), Parker (Sts/Shr), Pinches (Her), Simpson (Sts), Smith (War), Southall (Wor, Sts), Tatham (Wor/Lon), Tippin / Tippins (War/Her), Wagstaff (Not/Dby/Sts/Lei), Whitefoot (War/Shr), Williams (Dby/Han), Wrench (Sts), Wyatt (War/Sts)
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km1971
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2702
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Wittebergen was a 'battle' clasp. We surround a Boer commando and it took a while for them to surrender.
Ken
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