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Topic: Can a Change in Faith bring a Change of Name? (Read 571 times)
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masgrace
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 594
The Geneal Geologist on CreativeGraces.net
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I'm trying to explain the occurence of the same person appearing to have 2 names throughout his recorded history. Either name is found connected with the same spouse and same children, but never together, so it is almost certainly the same person.
Imagine the child of Irish immigrant born essentially a Catholic in the late 1820's English Black Country. He appears on the 1841 census as James, but marries as Patsy (short for Patrick) in 1849. His early children have Patcy or Patsy as the father and he dies as Patrick in 1878. On 1861 & 1871 census he is at home with his family as James. Upon marriage, the same children who has Patsy as a father on birth, now have James as the father.
Would conversion in the 1820's result in a name change? I am thinking one is a baptismal name, the other the family name. Unfortunately, no baptisms found. Clearly, the change occurred before 1841, with no census evidence that he was James P. or Patrick J.
Thoughts appreciated, especially if you have similar examples. I have another Black Country example where a Job WHITEHOUSE appears to have also become James later on, but this is much later in the century.
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All my family history & research at http://CreativeGraces.net offering free data exchange & ongoing collaborative research for more than 160 family names including several One-Name Studies. Over 240 surnames/interests on RootsChat Surname List. Want to know all there is to know about the use of DNA in genealogy? Then use http://www.isogg.org/ |
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DudleyWinchurch
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 898
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Masgrace,
there could be any one (or more) of several things going on here.
I have several people in my family tree, not just catholics, who have more than one given name and who (themselves or their parents) seem to treat these as interchangeable, such as infants whose birth is registered in one order but whose death is registered in the opposite order a couple of years later. Also women and girls in particular with two names who appear even alternately on various censuses with each name and no indication of the other name.
There is another possibility that he is James Patrick with James being after his father and so not used in any family context where his father is around but that at some stage later he became aware that it was his "official" name and so used it just in "official" contexts. Was the 1841 form likely to have been filled in by himself or his parents? You don't say what happened in 1851.
You also didn't mention quite where in the Black Country he was from which may also be significant.
At confirmation, catholics often take another name, after a saint whose life they have at least briefly researched. This may then be used, usually, in addition to baptismal names or just included as an extra initial. Later in the 19th century in the Bilston Holy Trinity parish, a number of young people (what we would now call teenagers), including some in my family, seem to have used their confirmation name as their principle name, sometimes for the rest of their lives. I don't know how common that was elsewhere at the time.
Similarly, anyone converting to catholicism at any age might adopt a confirmation name as they would be likely to be confirmed on completing their instruction and induction into the faith.
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McDonough, Oliver, McLoughlin, Cuthbert, Quirk, O'Malley (Ireland)
Dudley, Winchurch, Wolverson, Brookes (Black Country)
Concannon, Moore, Markowski (Markesky), Mottram, Lawton (Black Country)
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behindthefrogs
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4264
EDLIN
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It was fairly normal for someone who was baptised in a Roman Catholic Church to be given an additional name. This was usually the name of the Saint whose day fell on or nearest to the day that they were born (or maybe it was baptised). This actually led to some surprising results like girls named Mary Maria or even boys called Mary.
If your case was a late baptism this may account for the name change. Although most churches go a long way to avoid repeating a baptism the Roman Catholic Church is a known exception and does re-baptise people previously baptised by another denomination. On the other hand the Anglican Church has a special conditional baptism ceremony for people who don't know if they were previously baptised.
David
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Living in Berkshire. From Northampton & Milton Keynes DETAILS OF THE FOLLOWING NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley. Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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DudleyWinchurch
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 898
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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The catholic church does not rebaptise anyone known to be be properly baptized in the first place but does have a form of "conditional" baptism for cases where there may be some doubt, such as in cases of an emergency baptism by a parent or other relative. That is why you will find entries with "sub con", "c" or "s c" next to them in the registers.
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McDonough, Oliver, McLoughlin, Cuthbert, Quirk, O'Malley (Ireland)
Dudley, Winchurch, Wolverson, Brookes (Black Country)
Concannon, Moore, Markowski (Markesky), Mottram, Lawton (Black Country)
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behindthefrogs
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4264
EDLIN
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The catholic church does not rebaptise anyone known to be be properly baptized in the first place but does have a form of "conditional" baptism for cases where there may be some doubt, such as in cases of an emergency baptism by a parent or other relative. That is why you will find entries with "sub con", "c" or "s c" next to them in the registers.
I basically agree. The problem is that in the past many priests did not regard anyone baptised by another denomination as properly baptised. I know of a specific case back in the 1960s of someone who was brought up in the Congregational Church who converted to become a Roman Catholic in order to marry a Catholic girl. Despite presenting the priest with his baptism certificate, he insisted on conducting a full baptism service.
David
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Living in Berkshire. From Northampton & Milton Keynes DETAILS OF THE FOLLOWING NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley. Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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DudleyWinchurch
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 898
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Yes,
It's against the rules but did not mean that it didn't happen.
I have been informed that there were cases of priests (in the Midlands, but undoubtedly elsewhere as well) being admonished for doing just that.
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McDonough, Oliver, McLoughlin, Cuthbert, Quirk, O'Malley (Ireland)
Dudley, Winchurch, Wolverson, Brookes (Black Country)
Concannon, Moore, Markowski (Markesky), Mottram, Lawton (Black Country)
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masgrace
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 594
The Geneal Geologist on CreativeGraces.net
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DW & BTF - Thanks for the debate and information. It seems a possibility then. As I don't have the exact DOB it is difficult to know whether the Saints Day for James is relevant.
DW - I was unable to add 1851 as James/Patrick has not yet been located. It was shortly after his marriage in 1849 Dudley and I can't find his spouse either. One of the frustrations of a family name that can be phonetically written all kinds of ways by enumerators. He was a coalminer and could have gone to any coalfield (temporarily), as many from Tipton have done (both go and come back). He was in Tipton Lower Green by late 1851 for the birth of first child. I have looked at the census for LG area in 1851 (I have access to one film) and not spotted him and his wife (they should be James or Patrick or Patsy McDONALD & wife Phebe). It suggests they should be in the area (later census in nearby Watery Lane & Waterloo Street). Perhaps LG is covered on more than one film?
I can rule out James as his father, at it is Luke.
Family stories say he was Irish Catholic and his wife was a Methodist.
James/Patrick and his one sister I have been alble to trace generally have Dudley or Tipton as place of birth, however both in separate census (once only) have Shropshire. In 1871 he was Wellington, SAL and in 1861 she was Oakengates SAL. As these were done in separate times and separate places, with both as married adults, I assume this is not an error (as these villages are neighbouring) and suggests the parents were briefly in the now-Telford area in the period 1829-1832 when both were born. Again, no baptisms found in SAL.
The family were in a house full of Irish families (all Agr. Labs) in Wolverhampton Street, Dudley in 1841, and I know they arrived around 1822/23 as their first born, John, was baptised in Stone, STS with parents named and described as "Strangers on Travel". Prob. travelling down from Liverpool have just arrived from Ireland. I know they are Iirsh as the father just gets in on the 1851 census to confirm his POB before he dies in Tipton.
If anyone has access to films of the Tipton/Dudley census in 1851, I would appreciate another eye if a James/Patrick/Patsy & Phebe McDONALD could be found (often recorded on census simply as MACK, but could be worse than that - married as McDONNER). The index isn't helpful. Upon marriage in 1849, they were in Castle Street, Dudley.
Thanks & regards,
Mark
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All my family history & research at http://CreativeGraces.net offering free data exchange & ongoing collaborative research for more than 160 family names including several One-Name Studies. Over 240 surnames/interests on RootsChat Surname List. Want to know all there is to know about the use of DNA in genealogy? Then use http://www.isogg.org/ |
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Lydart
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3571
Great Granny Williams, the Dorset button maker
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St James is celebrated on 25th July ... would that tie in with the baptism or his birthday ??
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Dorset/Wilts/Hants: Trowbridge, Williams, Sturney, Prince, Foyle, Fripp, Triggle ... and more C'wall/Devon/CANADA (The Cariboo, B.C.): Pomeroy Som'set: Clark(e) Durham: Law London: Poplett Lancs/Cheshire/CANADA (B.C.): Stubbs, Walmesley WRITE LETTERS FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS TO TREASURE ... EMAILS DISAPPEAR FOREVER ! Census information Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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masgrace
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 594
The Geneal Geologist on CreativeGraces.net
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Lydart - Hard to say whether he was 25th July (James) or 17th March (Patrick) as no details of birth or baptisms have survived within the family. The family stories date from a grandchild who remembered uncles and their stories in the very early 1900's and passed on to current children who are now in their 80's. I keeping checking the area now and again in case even adult baptisms (as suggested by heywood) appear in the records. The family stories have otherwise panned out quite well as I've found matching records.
Heywood - Patrick/James was James in 1841, which is his earliest known record (aged 11, although incorrectly aged 4 on index - the original is clearly 11). I've often found census records have a second name or initial, but they never appear in public records (birth, baptism or death) and I have many Victorians who prefer their second name to their first in everyday life, but at least their BMD records support both.
As you note, they do appear to be misisng from the 1851 Tipton census, although they were in Lower Green in Q4 1851 for the birth of child Mary MACK (sic). I have examined most pages of the Tipton records from time to time, but no name/age combination seems to satisfy. They were married at Dudley St Thomas in 1849 and were both given of "Castle Street", which I presume is the Castle Street in Dudley (rather than the same name in Tipton). Does anyone have access to this part of the Dudey census to see if they were still there?
I was wondering whether there's a mix-up in the entry found by rossliv. Patrick & Phebe are given as lodgers, with no head of household at that address (perhaps missing). They may have mistakenly been given the ages of the Heads of houseold and their children incorrectly attributed to them. There's no match for the name coupled Patrick/Phebe in 1861 with an 1803 Ireland birth for both.
Can't rule out Patrick/Phebe were visiting Ireland in the period or his other sibling Luke, who I am trying to track down.
Thanks for your interest and observations.
Mark
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All my family history & research at http://CreativeGraces.net offering free data exchange & ongoing collaborative research for more than 160 family names including several One-Name Studies. Over 240 surnames/interests on RootsChat Surname List. Want to know all there is to know about the use of DNA in genealogy? Then use http://www.isogg.org/ |
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behindthefrogs
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4264
EDLIN
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Hello,
I think Vatican 2 changed the way the church regarded other christian baptisms - that's just by the way though.
My understanding is that is that while Vatican II, which started in 1962, changed the status of infant baptism to that of a sacrament it did not make any changes with regard to the status of baptisms in protestant churches.
There is some background documentation from the English Roman Catholic Church which seems to underwrite that baptisms in the Anglican church are acceptable. However there is a question about whether those of some protestant churches are invalid due to their views on the Trinity. As a result where there is doubt a conditional baptism is recommended. It may be that is what happened in the case of my friend as I would not at that time have been aware of conditional baptisms.
At the same time it seems to also have been reaffirmed that the name given in a Roman Catholic baptism should be from a list of acceptable names which are mainly of saints.
David
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Living in Berkshire. From Northampton & Milton Keynes DETAILS OF THE FOLLOWING NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley. Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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