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Valda
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9685
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Hi seasby and Carole
There does seem enough reason to continue to explore the Thomas Pope photographer link on the London and Middlesex board.
So the known children of Thomas and Ellen were
Births Dec 1885
Pope Thomas Harry O Stourbridge 6c 175
and then a big gap
Births Dec 1894
Pope Sarah Stourbridge 6c 175
and either
Births Mar 1897 Pope Florence Mary Stourbridge 6c 185
or
Births Dec 1897
Pope Florence Maria Stourbridge 6c 220
The 1885 marriage
Marriages Sep 1885
Osborne Ellen I. Wight 2b 920
Pope Thomas I. Wight 2b 920
took place at St Mary's Carisbrooke on the Isle of Wight. What was the name of Thomas' father and his occupation and Thomas' occupation on this marriage - both photographers?
You think there is a possible connection with this man?
1901 census RG13 52 folio 11
71 Rednall Terrace Hammersmith
Amy Hooper 33 Head Married Marylebone
Lucy Hooper 9 Daughter Hammersmith
John A Hooper 5 Son Hammersmith
William O Hooper 8 Son Hammersmith
Lionel Hooper 12 months Son Hammersmith
Thomas Pope 61 Boarder Married Photographer Hammersmith (born Kensington on the 1881 census and a photographer)
Marriages Sep 1889
Hooper Robert Fulham 1a 521
POPE Amy Olliff Fulham 1a 521
Does the O in Thomas Harry O's name stand for Oliff?
On the 1871 census RG10 66 folio 73
2 Oak Terrace Hammersmith Thomas senior is at that time a hawker. He does have a son called Thomas aged 14 and he was born in Marylebone.
Regards
Valda
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Valda
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9685
|
Thomas senior's age on the 1901 census of 61, looks a good 10 years to low for him on previous censuses, and for his age at death.
Deaths Mar 1912
Pope Thomas 81 Fulham 1a 309
1881 census RG11 56 folio 130
Thomas was aged 52
In 1871 (reference already given) he was aged 41
1861 census RG9 83 folio 32
1 Park Street Marylebone
Thomas Pope 31 Head Married Musician Middlesex
Mary A Pope 27 Wife Married Brighton Sussex
Mary A Pope 7 Daughter Paddington
Thomas G Pope 4 Son Marylebone
William Pope 9 Months Son Marylebone
Births Jun 1856
POPE Thomas George Marylebone 1a 431
Regards
Valda
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Valda
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9685
|
Hi seasby
Do you actually know your great grandmother was 'abandoned'? You know on census night 1901 she was staying somewhere else and by 1911 when most girls her age were working, often away from home as servants, so was she. One census night isn't enough evidence for abandonment by her mother, but it may inidcate things were difficult for her.
Ellen gives her status on the 1901 census as a widow. She may very well have had further children but do all their birth certificates state their father was called Thomas? Widow maybe the status Ellen gave for propriety's sake on the 1901 census if and when her marriage broke down and with the gap between Thomas Harry Pope's birth and Sarah's being so large, it may have already broken down by the time of the 1891 census and before Sarah's birth. The census information indicates that, if this is the correct Thomas Pope.
1901 census RG13 4918 folio 100
46 Queesn Street Lydney Gloucestershire/Welsh boarder
Thomas Pope 44 boarder Single Marylebone London
Henry Pope 38 boarder Single Marylebone London
1891 census RG12 4642 folio 120
152 Red House Llanaber with Barmouth Merionethshire Wales
Thomas Pope 34 Visitor Single Photographer Marylebone London
Henry Pope 28 Visitor Single Photographer Marylebone London
Possibles for the deaths of Thomas and Henry
Deaths Dec 1906
Pope Henry 44 Ross 6a 317
Pope Thomas 49 Ross 6a 318
Interesting they both died so close together possibly at the same time since they have adjacent death registrations.
Ellen and her son Thomas may be difficult to find on the 1891 census because they may be living under a different surname from Pope.
What please does the O stand for in Thomas' junior's name? Is it Oliff?
Births Dec 1885
Pope Thomas Harry O Stourbridge 6c 175
Regards
Valda
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Valda
Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9685
|
Hi seasby
Do you have a copy of Thomas' birth certificate?
Births Dec 1885
Pope Thomas Harry O Stourbridge 6c 175
If his name is Oliff it tends to support the fact that there is a connection to the Marylebone Popes since they too had Oliff as a middle name, as evidenced by Amy's middle name. There is also the photographic connection. Having a copy of the marriage certificate would also help prove it was this Thomas the son of a Thomas.
It doesn't however prove that Thomas Pope was the father of the subsequent children and your Sarah. If you are living in Wollaston what you tell the registrar in more distant Stourbridge when you register the child and what is strictly the truth are two different things. There were no checks in the system and if you walked in with a wedding ring on your finger and claimed the child was the legitimate child of your marriage the registrar was not going to question it. The 1891 census gives Thomas a long way from Wollaston, if he ever went there, and also with a status of single indicating he had left the marriage (divorce would be an expensive process and beyond ordinary peoples' means at the time) which may only lasted the time it took Ellen to become pregnant and marry when working away from home. She may have returned to Wollaston to give birth to Thomas Harry O without a husband if the marriage failed very quickly.
While what is said to a registrar in further away Stourbridge can be bluffed out, what is said to the local vicar in the parish you are living in isn't so easy since baptisms will take place in the local church in front of your friends and neighbours. Have you checked church baptisms to see if the children were baptised? I believe Old Swinford is the parish covering Wollaston.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/WOR/Oldswinford/index.html#ChurchRecords
The IGI coverage of the baptisms ceases in 1877.
Regards
Valda
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