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Topic: Colour Sergeant M C Keane, died Isandlwana (Read 189 times)
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Pete Keane
RootsChat Member
Posts: 235
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Have posted this seperatley to the original thread so it doesnt get missed.
Am looking for details on:
Colour Sergeant M C Keane, of the General Staff, who died at Isandlwana on 22nd January 1879.
I would appreciate any details of him, either service or family records.
Thanks in advance.
Pete Keane
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Pete Keane
RootsChat Member
Posts: 235
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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From other reports/forums, I have Michael as a forename, and 1855 as a dob.
He is described as an Irishman - dont know where this comes from but quite probably correct.
Pete.
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gortonboy
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 573
gorton monastary
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There are a number of source documents you could start with:
1. Historical Records of the 24th Regiment (published 1892): The regiment’s casualties (battle and disease) for Frontier and Zulu Wars 1877-79 are listed on pages 256-262. The list does not include earlier 1/24th deaths in Southern Cape. However this was used to produce the brass memorial tablet in Brecon Cathedral unveiled in 1898.
2. WO100/46 Medal Roll for South Africa Medal for 1/24th and 2/24th: Handwritten in the National Archives - transcribed by D R Forsyth (1978) and Norman Holme (1964) and The Noble 24th (1999). There are errors by battalion clerks and by the later transcribers. Held at the National Archives at Kew. Some names are missing!
3. WO25/3474 - Casualty Returns (all units) for the Frontier and Zulu Wars 1878-1879: Handwritten folder in the National Archives at Kew (contains errors and inconstancies). Transcribed (with further errors!) by Ian Tavender (1985 republished 2004). This is the basis of the London Gazette Supplement entries - so the errors and inconsistencies in the handwritten returns are replicated in the London Gazette. Its further failing is that it only includes battle casualties - those soldiers who died of disease are often not listed. Probably the least reliable list.
4. WO25/3368 - Casualty Returns for the 24th Regiment (1850-1903): Handwritten ledger in the National Archives. Maintained by the 24th Regiment - more reliable than WO25/3474 as it contains both battle & disease casualties, but individual entries often do not quote regimental number, date and place of death of casualty.
5. Muster Book & Pay Lists for 1/24th and 2/24th 1875-1880: WO12/4131, WO12/4132, WO16/1573, WO16/1574, WO16/1579, WO16/1580 held at the National Archives at Kew. Very useful to check spelling of names, regimental numbers, but it is painstaking work to track a man through each of quarter of the pay sheets. Deaths outside of Isandlwana are normally listed.
6. The Military Casualties of South Africa – Volume 1 1834-1878 – Compiled by TE Sole. Copy held by Castle Museum, Cape Town. Pages 71-72.
7. Contemporary South African Newspapers. These do list casualties in the AZW (without regimental numbers). Extracts are included in the Red Book - Natal Press Reports published by Ron Lock and Peter Quantrill in 2001
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MCHUGH {mayo/manchester} MCHALE{mayo/manchester /chicago} KENNY{Kingswear,devon/manchester} TIMPERLEY{wilmslow-bollin fee,Manchester} SMITH{manchester} LEE{manchester}
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gortonboy
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 573
gorton monastary
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just read about him online,,about his body being finally recovered after all those years,,,,,,what a fascinating yet tragic story. i am assuming he is one of your ancestors,,,,,,,surely there must be a wealth of info out there about the soldiers from this infamous battle? what exactly is it you would like to find out?? there must be war diaries for the regiment etc,, the article i read even showed a photo of your man,,and even a photo of his tunic button,,,,i am assuming you have already seen these? good luck with your research,,,,,regards,,,MIKE.
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MCHUGH {mayo/manchester} MCHALE{mayo/manchester /chicago} KENNY{Kingswear,devon/manchester} TIMPERLEY{wilmslow-bollin fee,Manchester} SMITH{manchester} LEE{manchester}
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km1971
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2721
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Mike
But what evidence is there that he was 24th Foot? As he died in service his papers would have been destoyed, so the main source will be the Muster Books, which requires his regiment.
Ken
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Pete Keane
RootsChat Member
Posts: 235
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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And that is the very problem....
Just to confuse things for me a little more (!), there were two Keanes killed at Isandlwana:
C/Sgt Michael C Keane, b1855, he was part of the General Staff Corps (not 24th, he isnt in their records at all.) It is his button that has been recovered, and possibly his remains.
Pte J. Keane, 1st Bn.,24th Regt (roll no.88).
I have always been told that a distant relative died during the battle, I have always assumed it was Pte. J. Keane - mainly because my ancestors were illiterate farmers from the West of Ireland , so the chances of one of them being a 24 year old C/Sgt, clerk to one of the commanding staff I have thought unlikely.
The problem is that the button may indicate the GSC, and the dna may prove the remains are a Keane, but they dont prove which one! The button was close to the body, but not part of a uniform being worn by the remains.
The photograph - I do not believe this to be C/Sgt Keane - I believe it is a photo of a C/Sgt used by the guy who identified the button for comparison purposes and the press have now said its C/Sgt Keane.
I have always had it at the back of my mind to do the research but have put it off because its far more complex than anything else, maybe now is a good time to start, certainly AMAFA would appreciate some one doing the legwork.
It makes no difference to me which Keane they may have found, or whether they are my ancestors or not, I would just like to see them given a decent burial with their comrades. Many men died that day, whether Colonial or Zulu, there is no mystery surrounding the deaths, it would be nice to know they can be laid to rest again.
The AMAFA director has said he will let me know the results, if he does I will keep you posted.
In the meantime, I guess I need a birth record for C/Sgt Keane.
In relation to Pte Keane, Mike's suggestions seem spot on.
Pete.
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km1971
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2721
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Pete
Can you say where the information that he was born in 1855 comes from?
Ken
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Pete Keane
RootsChat Member
Posts: 235
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi,
I believe the date was supplied by AMAFA, and was published in several papers (the Daily Mail certainly used it.)
The badge identification was done by a chap called John Young, he and another chap with great knowledge Peter Quantrill, are discussing the topic on a thread on the rorkesdriftvc.com website - I am trying to register to find out where they got the dob info. from.
I need to go up one generation (ie MC Keanes parents) to try and find a link, there are plenty of Michael Keanes in my family (I have at least one cousin called Michael!).
I have only gone as far back as my great-great-grandfather, who I believe is one generation below the Keanes still, but I have a (literally distant!) American cousin who has gone further, but we are still working on that period at the moment, and there's lots of gaps.
Pete
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Pete Keane
RootsChat Member
Posts: 235
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Sorry John, I didnt realise that it was you posting here, otherwise I wouldnt talk about you in the third person!
I have tried to post on the rorkesdrift site, but I'm struggling to register!
If sufficient DNA is available then I think it most likely that the remains can be confirmed (or not) as a Keane, but I think they may struggle with saying exactly which one! Balance of probabilities does suggest C/Sgt Keane though, as I doubt Pte Keane got that far, and the button is strong evidence.
I have spoken to my cousin in the States, but without more definite info. on either Keane its a bit of a struggle, without looking at the muster rolls of the 24th or some GSC records its a bit of a needle in a haystack.
I did consider that 24 was very young to be a C/Sgt - ironically if he'd been a captain it wouldnt have seemed odd, but I combined this with the General Staff posting and put it down to patronage.
Regards
Pete.
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