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Topic: 1868 June 5th Kilmarnock, a missing marriage registration (Read 1018 times)
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hume
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1892
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Hi Bob, Monica and Wullie,
Looking over all the information, I think I would go for the two Roberts being one and the same. The “marriage” to Janet Barbour and subsequent son with her matches very well with the Auchinleck Robert’s “timeline”. Indeed, the 1871 census, taken at 7 North Hamilton Street, does give Robert’s birthplace as Auchinleck.
I notice on the marriage certificate, it lists both Robert Mann (or Main – whichever you prefer!!  ) and Agnes Campbell Frazer as deceased. However, Agnes didn’t die until 1894 in Auchinleck. Is it just down to a registrar’s error or was Robert starting to omit certain details to leave his life in Kilmarnock? I could just have an overactive imagination though! 
It would be interesting to find out what happened to Robert jnr. What he lists on a marriage certificate, etc. Also could he have claimed poor relief in Kilmarnock or his grandparents on his behalf? I’m assuming if his father was away by then (with no contact) that there may be some details.
hume
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Bobbius
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 17
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Hume,
You've given me yet other leads to follow eg Robert jnr's marriage. Your active imagination seems to work in similar ways to mine. Perhaps he did want to "disappear" into the darkest corners of Lanarkshire, although his sisters spouse was from Lanarkshire . Is it possible to check for poor law relief, are records kept.?
I really do appreciate this feedback.
Regards
bobm
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hume
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1892
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There seems to be an index here for Ayrshire poor relief applications: http://www.ayrshire-roots.co.uk/poorrelief.php From their parish and date list, Kilmarnock seems to be covered for around that time ... hopefully something will appear. 
Will keep searching for anything on Robert jnr.
hume
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kirkmichael
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 86
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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.....snipped........... I notice on the marriage certificate, it lists both Robert Mann (or Main – whichever you prefer!! ) and Agnes Campbell Frazer as deceased. However, Agnes didn’t die until 1894 in Auchinleck. Is it just down to a registrar’s error or was Robert starting to omit certain details to leave his life in Kilmarnock? I could just have an overactive imagination though! :- ......snipped
Hi hume
There's nothing wrong with your imagination !
This happens occasionally. I'ts no consolation to write here that the info on whether the parents are alive or dead is generally much more accurate on Scottish records than in England.
While I can't prove it I strongly suspect that most errors arise from the question that the registrar asked being misheard or misunderstood, leading to occasional false positives and false negatives.
Wullie
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kirkmichael
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 86
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Having had a wet towel round my head session y'day, looking at all the records involved, I'm leaning toward believing that the Robert MANN/MAN/MAIN of the 1868 birth record is the same as that in the 1881 marriage.
Just to add to the difficulties, there's also the surname MAHN, and all the Mc variants !
Without some further proof, however, and I'm not sure what that might be, it may never be possible to be certain.
The only thing that I can think of would be a poor relief inspector's interview report, or some other poor relief record that refers to the family background of an applicant.
The only other strategy, potentially a time consuming one, is to eliminate every other possible MANN or variant, - something not realistic to do on ScotlandsPeople due to the cost, and requiring several hours at least in Edinburgh. In terms of tracking the Robert b. 1868, there's something like 70 deaths in Scotland of around the correct age; but then that assumes that he died in Scotland !
One of the facts which leads me to my 'leaning' is the 1871 census entry showing the father Robert's place of birth as Auchinleck. This from the point of view that I can't find any others of the name born there (subject always to a couple of hours research in Edinburgh).
And that's fairly typical of the type of sitation that sometimes crops up in this type of research  , probabilities only, and with bits of evidence pointing in different ways and/or giving rise to possible contradictions.
Wullie
PS Later..... We forgot wills.
There's a couple of documents that would need checking out, if only for the purpose of elimination, -
Mann Robert 05/02/1901 189 Allison Street, Govanhill, Glasgow, d. 12/09/1900 at Govanhill, testate
Main Robert 08/03/1899 Coal Merchant, Carnwath, d. 04/01/1899 at Carnwath, intestate Lanark Sheriff Court SC38/42/8 (From the SP death index, looks like he was 73)
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Bobbius
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 17
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Hume and Kirkmichael,
Amazed at the amount of research you have carried out on my behalf, for which I am most grateful.
The death registration for Agnes Campbell Fraze is clear, the 3 Feb 1894, Auchinleck. Hume has already drawn relevant inferences from that fact. Interestingly Robert Mann's pre- marital status is the only one missing from his marriage record in 1881, the others on that page are correctly identified as spinster/ bachelor. I lean towards the view he did not want to make any statement re his status, rather than the registrar omitting to ask.
Summarising so far, Robert Mann b1846, Auchinleck is probably the Robert Main of the marriage in 1881 and is likely to have been the father of Robert Mann b 1868, Kilmarnock. Unless there is fresh evidence out there e.g. poor law records/wills we may never know.
The coal merchant in Carnwath is likely to be a red herring, however, there are other MAINS in that location which I have still to research also other family members in Kilmarnock.
Steps I can take, are a trip to the archives in Edinburgh to build a more complete picture of Manns' circa 1848 onwards and attempt to pin down what happened to Robert Mann b 1868. I have tried in the last couple of days to id Robert Mann b 1868, without much luck - as Kirkmichael indicated may be the case
Are there any other steps I can take, other than building a time machine?
Regards
bobm
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kirkmichael
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 86
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Hume and Kirkmichael,
Amazed at the amount of research you have carried out on my behalf, for which I am most grateful.
I would imagine that I can speak for Hume as well when I say that it's the 'thrill of the hunt' along with the fascination that, however long you've been at it, there is always a new, sometime unique, set of circumstances and facts that you haven't come across before that present a new challenge; never mind a continually developing situation in terms of new data sets becoming available on line, or being at least indexed, - e.g. just wait until the NAS Registers of Deeds are fully indexed, and wha kens?, one of these days, digitised...............
The day that I stop being interested in following up on an post/thread such as this will be the day they screw the lid down 
The death registration for Agnes Campbell Fraze is clear, the 3 Feb 1894, Auchinleck. Hume has already drawn relevant inferences from that fact. Interestingly Robert Mann's pre- marital status is the only one missing from his marriage record in 1881, the others on that page are correctly identified as spinster/ bachelor. I lean towards the view he did not want to make any statement re his status, rather than the registrar omitting to ask.
It wasn't just a matter of the registrar forgetting to ask, but more a question of the registrar misunderstanding/misinterpreting a possibly mumbled reply. Think double positives, Scots being unique in the world in that a double positive means a negative 
[A greatly respected academic, an expert philologist, once stated at an international conference, - "As we all know there are many languages where a double negative means a positive, but others where the doubling is only emphasis of the negative; but, in all my years I've never come across a single language where a double positive means a negative.
Into the respectful silence following this pronouncement came a voice with a clear Scottish accent, - "Aye, that'll be right" !]
Summarising so far, Robert Mann b1846, Auchinleck is probably the Robert Main of the marriage in 1881 and is likely to have been the father of Robert Mann b 1868, Kilmarnock. Unless there is fresh evidence out there e.g. poor law records/wills we may never know.
I'd go so far as to upgrade 'probably' to 'most probably'
The coal merchant in Carnwath is likely to be a red herring, however, there are other MAINS in that location which I have still to research also other family members in Kilmarnock.
That's the correct approach !
Steps I can take, are a trip to the archives in Edinburgh to build a more complete picture of Manns' circa 1848 onwards and attempt to pin down what happened to Robert Mann b 1868. I have tried in the last couple of days to id Robert Mann b 1868, without much luck - as Kirkmichael indicated may be the case
Are there any other steps I can take, other than building a time machine?
Contact East Ayrshire Archives and follow up on possible poor relief records.
A complete and utter longshot, potentially very time consuming, would be to have a look at the local newspaper[s] of the time for mention of the family, particularly intimations of BMDs, funeral reports (they sometimes included lists of all the principal mourners and their relationship to the deceased) and obituaries, plus items along the lines of "news has reached us of the death in West Freuch in Tasmania of the death of Robert MAHN who emigrated from Scotland in 18??......." ..... along with a wee biog in terms of the local connections.
I'm unsure as to the local newspapers of the time, but East Ayrshire Archives could advise, not least in terms or their being any indexes, particularly surname indexes such as local genealogy societies in many places have produced.
Wullie
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Bobbius
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 17
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hume and Kirkmichael,
Having just read your posts I feel most warmed and humbled.
I am pleased to have shared this short journey, in time at least, with you.
I will continue to turn the pages over and should there be light I will let you know.
Keep up the good work and many thanks.
Bob
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hume
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1892
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Hi again Bob and others,
I'm wondering if we could confirm whether the Robert Mann Monica found in Renfrew for 1891 is the son of Robert Mann and Janet Barbour, or James Mann and Janet Ramage. As Monica says, he is a furnaceman shown b. c. 1868.
However, the 1901 entry for what is sure to be the son of James and Janet shows him to be born 1865 at Kilmarnock and an invoice clerk. Later certificates (his death in 1949, his wife Helen Christie's death in 1934) show him to be a soft goods/drapery collector. Quite a big leap in jobs, if it's the same person. Of course Robert and Helen seem to have avoided registering their marriage between 1891 and 1901 so nothing to confirm his doings around that time. 
hume
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10295
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Sounds like it runs in the family Hume The problem I found on the censuses for 1891/1901 is that I could only find one and not two young Robert Mai/nn. The 1901 entry I think is likely to be the son of James and Janet, the 1891 less certain.
From memory now from the other day, the wife of James, Janet, I think looks to have died between 1881-91. James and Janet's children look to be scattered around all working away from home by 1891...and it is with this background that we have that entry for a Robert Mann working as a furnaceman and lodging in Renfrew.
Monica
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hume
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1892
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I found Janet's death in 1882. She died of complications relating to childbirth. So that's why the children are scattered about different farms in Ayrshire. James is staying on his own at Hallriggs, Loudoun parish in 1891.
I suppose in 10 years Robert could have switched from manual work to clerical work. Not too much of a stretch, especially since he wasn't that old etc.
hume
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10295
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By 1891, young Robert would have been 23 by then. So options are an early death or he left Scotland. I did see a couple of possibles on the English censuses for naval entries but no place of birth in Scotland so all a bit vague unfortunately.
Monica
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Bobbius
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 17
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Monica, Hume, Wullie,
Not a lot to add to what is being said except I am gradually, headaches permitting working through the Manns on SO - I should have bought shares in SP. Wullie did say there were 74. I f you need any certificate look-ups on SP, save your money, is there any mileage in saying let me do it for you,
Regards
bobm
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10295
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Bob
Are you based in Scotland? If so, have a look at this post with alternative ideas on looking up BMDs. Given the fishing expedition that faces you, it will be mighty expensive to try and do this on line through SP alone.
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,193879.0.html
Monica
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