|
Pages: [1] 2
|
 |
|
Author
|
Topic: Lookup please to confirm suspicion!! (Read 718 times)
|
merrymoo
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 87
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi all, 
Please would someone check this for me 
John Albert WILKINSON b. Jan 1840 St Pancras, parents John WILKINSON b. 1821 Marylebone, Middx and Caroline POOLE b. 1811 Burnham, Bucks
married
Augusta Victoria HAZELL b. 9 Oct 1838 in Taplow, Bucks, parents John HAZELL b.1812 Burnham, Bucks and Ann POOLE b. 1813 Burnham, Bucks
(Augusta had an illegitimate daughter, Mary HAZELL, at the time of her marriage to John Albert and when I ordered the birth certificate for Mary the father's name was entered as John Albert Wilkinson but struck out and comment entered in the margin, also Augusta's surname was entered as Wilkinson and then struck out, re-entered as Hazel and again comment in the margin. I have already discussed this on rootschat and decided that Mary was illegitimate and that John may or may not have been the father.)
However
Ann POOLE'S parents are Edmund POOL and Hannah HOLLIS m. 10 Dec 1792 (on the IGI)
and I keep getting Caroline POOLES parents as the same Edm. POOL and Hannah HOLLIS.
I would like to confirm that Caroline and Ann were actually sisters, if so John Albert and Augusta Victoria were 1st cousins. Was this normal for the time and would the fact that Augusta had an illegitimate daughter have any bearing on the matter?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Rodd, Royffe, Guinin, Guinn (Bethnal Green), Trevett, Trivet etc (Dorset), Moore (Devon & Dorset), Cox Lyme Regis & Bath), McGregor (Surrey & Kent), Brown & Wilkinson (Bethnal Green), Wilkinson, Hazell, Hazel,Poole & Poole (Bucks)
Scotland: Mackrell (Dumbarton)
Wales: Thomas, Jones (Glamorgan)
Ireland: Kelly (Dublin City), Stubbs (Dublin and Mallow, Cork), Woods (Dublin City) Mackrell (Limerick)
|
|
|
AMBLY
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4606
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
|
Hi merrymoo
John WILKINSON and Caroline POOLE may have married Mar Qtr 1838, St Saviour - both names on same Vol 4, page 316..
I see on the IGI (submitted or extracted entry, not sure) that there is a chr for Annie POOLE to Edmund and Hannah in 1813. But, there is also a Chr for those parents of dau Caroline POOLE in 1826 - some 15 yrs after the birth 1811 of Caroline WILKINSON nee POOLE.
If you are already certain that Ann HAZELL nee POOLE is the daughter of Edmund and Hannah, then getting the marriage cert of Caroline POOLE to WILKINSON to see what her father's name is may confirm your suspicion of cousinship between John & Augusta.
It seems Ann married HAZELL pre Sep Qtr 1837. The parish record of the marriage is unlikely to name her father.
1st cousin marriage was neither illegal nor uncommon.
A rootsweb discussion topic may be interesting to read.
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/LANCSGEN/2005-09/1127414115
I don't think the fact that Augusta had an illigitimate child made any bearing on the possibilty her husband (whom she married in 1859) was a cousin AND possibly the father her child .
At the time her daughter Mary was born there was no legal provision for the registrar to be required to record the father's name - it was, according to the paper in the link below, something that might happen if the registrar agreed to - but which in practice very rarely did. It was in fact more common to find illigitimate children registered as if they were legitimate, they did not have to prove marriage to register the child as legitimate. (I was as involved on a topic the other day where 5 children were born to a respectable couple, and registered as children of Mr & Mrs, when in fact the parents did not marry till years later. All of the children had the mother's maiden name registered as a 2nd forename),
Just a thought, who was the informant registered for Mary's birth?
http://www.pricegen.com/resources/illegitimacy.htm
A child born out of wedlock is legitimated by the later marriage of his natural parents
Between 1837-1875, if the mother informed a registrar of an illegitimate child’s’ birth and also advised the name of the father, the registrar could record him as the father, but he did not have to.
From 1875 - to the present day, a man could only be named as the father on a birth certificate if he consented and was present when the birth was registered.
If a woman marries shortly after the birth of an illegitimate child, it is possible the husband was biological father to the child.
I would add to that, if Mary was given the name Wilkinson as a middle name, it may indicate further John was her father.
If Mary was baptised WILKINSON, daughter of John & Augusta again, it may indicate further John was her father.
It may be that the struck-out parts of the birth certificate were the registrar's way of getting the name of the father recorded on the certificate - if he (the registrar) had decided he wanted to help Augusta & John out in this manner but felt unable to record it any other way. And of course, he could have discovered from another source that Mary was illigitimate and corrected the entry later, being unwilling to leave a false record in place.
Or he could have discovered at the time of registration and made the correction at the time the registration was taking place, perhaps Augusta had (possibly unwittingly, revealed her unmarried status etc.
Do the strike-outs and margin coments look as though they have been made by the same hand and the same time (or are initialled by the same registrar as completed the rest of the certificate?
It may be that the paternity of Mary is forever going to be a case of deciding 'beyond reasonable doubt' .
Unless there is some parish document recording an action made by Augusta against the father who is not John.
Cheers
AMBLY
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
merrymoo
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 87
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi Ambly,
thanks for your reply, lots and lots of detail,
i am awaiting the marriage certificate for John Wilkinson and Caroline Poole so we will see who her father is then.
You asked who the informant was for Mary Hazell was and it was her mother, Augusta Victoria Hazell, something I hadn't noticed before was that the alterations re the Wilkinson name must have been done at the time as fathers name, John Albert Wilkinson was crossed out, mothers name was amended to Hazell from Wilkinson, but the name of the informant was entered correctly as Augusta Victoria Hazell - no mention of Wilkinson at all there. Also the handwriting and ink all look as though it was done at the time.
Also Mary had the middle name as HAZEL on her marriage certificate later on i.e. Mary Hazel Wilkinson.
Thanks for all your info, I will look at those sites as soon as I get a chance, I have the week off work next week and as the weather doesnt seem to be improving I may spend some time on the Family History 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Rodd, Royffe, Guinin, Guinn (Bethnal Green), Trevett, Trivet etc (Dorset), Moore (Devon & Dorset), Cox Lyme Regis & Bath), McGregor (Surrey & Kent), Brown & Wilkinson (Bethnal Green), Wilkinson, Hazell, Hazel,Poole & Poole (Bucks)
Scotland: Mackrell (Dumbarton)
Wales: Thomas, Jones (Glamorgan)
Ireland: Kelly (Dublin City), Stubbs (Dublin and Mallow, Cork), Woods (Dublin City) Mackrell (Limerick)
|
|
|
|
|
merrymoo
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 87
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi,
thanks I await in anticipation 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Rodd, Royffe, Guinin, Guinn (Bethnal Green), Trevett, Trivet etc (Dorset), Moore (Devon & Dorset), Cox Lyme Regis & Bath), McGregor (Surrey & Kent), Brown & Wilkinson (Bethnal Green), Wilkinson, Hazell, Hazel,Poole & Poole (Bucks)
Scotland: Mackrell (Dumbarton)
Wales: Thomas, Jones (Glamorgan)
Ireland: Kelly (Dublin City), Stubbs (Dublin and Mallow, Cork), Woods (Dublin City) Mackrell (Limerick)
|
|
|
|
|
merrymoo
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 87
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi Lesanne.
thanks for that,
do you think your John Hazell 1845 may be the son of my John Hazell b 1811 and Ann Poole b 1813.
Seems possible if they come from Burnham or at least of the same family. My line comes down from 1811 John Hazell's daughter Augusta (sometimes Agnes) Victoria Hazell.
Can i see the photo?
Merrymoo
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Rodd, Royffe, Guinin, Guinn (Bethnal Green), Trevett, Trivet etc (Dorset), Moore (Devon & Dorset), Cox Lyme Regis & Bath), McGregor (Surrey & Kent), Brown & Wilkinson (Bethnal Green), Wilkinson, Hazell, Hazel,Poole & Poole (Bucks)
Scotland: Mackrell (Dumbarton)
Wales: Thomas, Jones (Glamorgan)
Ireland: Kelly (Dublin City), Stubbs (Dublin and Mallow, Cork), Woods (Dublin City) Mackrell (Limerick)
|
|
|
londonlad
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 6
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
hi all....i have a james poole who father was edmund poole and ann poole...i wonder if related
james from several areas in bucks and berks born 1824
edmund born about 1795
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
merrymoo
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 87
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi, your Edmund born abt 1795 is the son of my 4th G Gfather Edmund b 1773 his details are as below:
Edmund Poole was born 28 Aug 1773 in Burnham Bucks
He married Hannah Hollis who was born about 1775 in Bucks - marriage details from IGI Family Search as below:-
HANNAH HOLLIS Pedigree
Marriages:
Spouse: EDM. POOL
Marriage: 10 DEC 1792 Burnham, Buckingham, England
(it's also on Pallots Marriage Index)
Edmund died on 22 Aug 1830 in Burnham Bucks
Your Edmund had a brother William born the same year, not sure if a twin or just 9 month apart as haven't had a look at the original records. There were 13 children of the marriage, not all lived past childhood. If you want them I will post them as well.
Hope these details help
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Rodd, Royffe, Guinin, Guinn (Bethnal Green), Trevett, Trivet etc (Dorset), Moore (Devon & Dorset), Cox Lyme Regis & Bath), McGregor (Surrey & Kent), Brown & Wilkinson (Bethnal Green), Wilkinson, Hazell, Hazel,Poole & Poole (Bucks)
Scotland: Mackrell (Dumbarton)
Wales: Thomas, Jones (Glamorgan)
Ireland: Kelly (Dublin City), Stubbs (Dublin and Mallow, Cork), Woods (Dublin City) Mackrell (Limerick)
|
|
|
londonlad
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 6
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
yes i have come across hannah hollis but thought this was not in my tree as had been concentrating on the first edmund...im new to this!!
i alreadly have 12 children by james i think without lookin!!
yes i would love the infromation..
many regards
paul
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
merrymoo
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 87
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi, what I have so far:
John Poole b.1738, married Martha Ley (Leg?) b 1740 on 21 Feb 1762
Children: John b 1770, Ann b 1770, Edmund 1773 - 1830, James 1776 - 1776 (died same year), Mary b 1777, Elizabeth b ? and Catherine b ? d. 1835
Next generation:
Edmund Poole and Hannah Hollis
Children: John b 1794 d 1 dec 1867, William b 1796 d 1873, Edmund b 1796 d 1863, George b 1797 d 1873, James b 1799, Mary b 1801, Sophia b 1803, Martha b 1805 d 1879, Caroline b 1811, Ann b 1813 d 1887, Charles 1816 and Harriet b 1817 d 1817 (same year)
(I thought there was 13 but had Ann down twice 
Next generation:
Edmund Poole m Ann Slater b 1788 - 1875
Children: Edmund Poole b abt 1821, James Poole b 1824 and Lucy Poole b 1830
Hope these help
Diane
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Rodd, Royffe, Guinin, Guinn (Bethnal Green), Trevett, Trivet etc (Dorset), Moore (Devon & Dorset), Cox Lyme Regis & Bath), McGregor (Surrey & Kent), Brown & Wilkinson (Bethnal Green), Wilkinson, Hazell, Hazel,Poole & Poole (Bucks)
Scotland: Mackrell (Dumbarton)
Wales: Thomas, Jones (Glamorgan)
Ireland: Kelly (Dublin City), Stubbs (Dublin and Mallow, Cork), Woods (Dublin City) Mackrell (Limerick)
|
|
|
londonlad
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 6
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
i have come across many times the people mentioned but did not connect as a few years behind you..james poole 12 children is one of my great grandfathers...father of james is edmund poole...lucy and son edmund also match.
so you have helped me go a stage further ...thankyou
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
merrymoo
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 87
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi, happy to help
Rootschat has helped me many times, they are a great bunch out there so welcome to the club 
If you get any further back let me know Diane
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Rodd, Royffe, Guinin, Guinn (Bethnal Green), Trevett, Trivet etc (Dorset), Moore (Devon & Dorset), Cox Lyme Regis & Bath), McGregor (Surrey & Kent), Brown & Wilkinson (Bethnal Green), Wilkinson, Hazell, Hazel,Poole & Poole (Bucks)
Scotland: Mackrell (Dumbarton)
Wales: Thomas, Jones (Glamorgan)
Ireland: Kelly (Dublin City), Stubbs (Dublin and Mallow, Cork), Woods (Dublin City) Mackrell (Limerick)
|
|
|
londonlad
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 6
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
please can you look at www.bbfamilytree.co.uk/swabey family tree
so many matching names but dates not right in places..my tree is on myheritage .com/minter family tree
thanks
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2
|
|
|
|
|
