slothbear
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 69
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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hello
can someone please find some info on a john edwards born approx 1792 in
merionethshire
i have his birth place from the census as being a llanyurllyn,but ive goggled it and it does not come up as a place???
can anyone help please
thank you
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24530
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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Hi both
I have the Llanuwchllyn parish records but away from home at the moment. I'll check them when I'm back at the weekend if no one else has them 
Can you PM me on Friday to remind me, please.
Gadget
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24530
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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Hii
I've just been looking at the Llanuwchllyn registers.
The best that I have is:
Baptised 27th November 1792, born 23rd Nov. John s/o John Edward and Jane. John is listed as pauper, living at Pennatlliw.
It looks as if you've managed to get them at the cusp of the transfer between patronymic form and surname. I'ss see if I can find more children for them and/or a marriage. It looks as if John Edward (father)'s father might have been an Edward.
Gadget
Added -
There's also this one:
Baptised 7th April 1791 b. 4th. John s/o Robert Edward and Jane. Robert is entered as a farmer living Cynllwyd.
Do you have any names of your John's children?
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slothbear
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 69
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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hi gadget
since your reply i have been on the census's trying to find the children of john edwards.
i cant find him on the 1841 census,or his wife or sons..
on the 1851 there is a son edward edwards he is 20 and a robert evans ( nephew)age 8
and his wife mary born in llangadfan 1797 and they lived in montgomeryshire,with a 40 acre farm.
in 1861 john must of died,but there are another 2 children edward ? age 7
robert age 5
john edwards and his wife must of been in there 60s when they had there last children??
this is not much help really as they proberly had most of there children before the census's come in.
have you got any other advice on who john edwards father could be in llanuwchllyn 
i would be very greatful for any more help
kind regards
ian
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24530
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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Hi Ian
Have you got the reference to the census page that you looked at in 1841 also 1861 (without a Book no!) :
HO107/ Piece no. Book, Folio, Page
Gadget
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slothbear
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 69
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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hi gadget
i think this is what you want
1851 census
class ho107
piece 2499
folio 692
page 1
gsuroll 104262-104263
1861
class rg9
piece 4264
folio 44
page 3
gsuroll 543259
hope this helps ,thank you
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24530
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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Thanks, Ian
I'll have a good look at them tomorrow for you and see if I can see any clues
Gadget
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24530
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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Looking at the 1851 census, I think the most likely parents are:
Baptised 7th April 1791 b. 4th. John s/o Robert Edward and Jane. Robert is entered as a farmer living Cynllwyd
1851 census was on 30 March 1851
John is down as aged 59 - therefore b. 1st April 1791 - 30 March 1792
If b. Nov 1892, he would have been 58.
Gadget
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24530
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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I think the two sons, aged 7 and 5 on the 1861 are either a mistranscription by the enumerator or wrongly written down on the orginal household schedule or are grandsons.
I can't see a woman in her mid-late 50s having two children within 2 years of each other in the 1850s.
Have you checked for birth/baptisms of these two?
Gadget
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slothbear
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 69
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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thank you so much for your advice gadget.
i did think it was a bit strange,a woman having 2 children so late in life
i think your right with what you say.
as i am doing this family tree for a friend i didnt intend to order meny cert and put the cost up
but as i have got more involed in the tree i might just order a couple more to make sure im on the right path.
so if i do order a birth cert for robert off the 1861 census,it might give a differnt name than mary which the census gives as the mother ,but who we think is roberts grandmother
( perhaps)
could i ask of one more request please
on the PR llanuwchllyn,you think johns father is robert from cynllwyd
could you please give the brothers and sisters of john
and go back in the PR and see if robert's ancesters where from llanuwchllyn
thank you for all your help gadget i am so very greatful
kind regards
ian
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24530
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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Hi Ian
I'll check them out tomorrow for you, if that's OK.
I do recall that there seemed to be more than one family living at cynllwyd at around the same time - all of them xxx edward.
Did John and Mary have a daughter? Alternatively, the children could be children of one of the sons.
The North Wales BMD site may be the best for checking up on the children b. 1851-1861 as they narrow down to sub registration districts.
Gadget
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slothbear
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 69
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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hi gadget
yes thats fine,thank you.
ah so there might of been two edward familys,its never easy is it this family tree research,it keeps the brain ticking over i suppose
thanks for the advice i will look up the north wales bmd site
hope to hear off you tommorow then
kind regards
ian
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Rol
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 86
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Hi Ian,
Glad to see that you have been in good hands with this enquiry and how much progress has been made. I think that the name matches now make it very likely that Llanuwchllyn was the parish that the 1851 census enumerator intended; and Gadget's detailed analysis seems very convincing.
You have probably already had a look at the OS map of the relevant area, but in case not this link will take you to the version on the Streetmap site. The problem now is that Cynllwyd is not an individual farm but a whole township, located in and around a long side valley running off into the hills south-east of the village; and as the map shows, it contains quite a few individual farms.
So ideally you need to find some written evidence to tie Robert Edward to a specific farm in Cynllwyd. That might be provided by a more industrious parson (or later perhaps a nonconformist minister), who bothered with farm names instead of just townships (so often one finds only the latter) -- and with luck such extra info could show up in further entries in the BMD registers.
Although John Edwards himself had married and apparently moved to Montgomeryshire by then, the Llanuwchllyn tithe apportionment schedule (ca. 1838-40) could still prove helpful if the family had kept the tenancy on, with (say) an elder brother of John's taking over the farm after the death of their parents. The schedule will list the owner and occupier of every acre in the parish. Versions should be at Kew, the NLW and Dolgellau RO. (Forgive me if I am telling you things you know very well already!)
Another line of attack might be estate rentals -- for example, a good deal of ground in that general neighbourhood was owned by the Williams-Wynns of Wynnstay, some of whose papers are at Ruthin RO and more at the NLW.
At that sort of date, of course, relatively few people bothered with the expense of will-making. Just in case, I have had a quick look at the probate database via the NLW's website. But I could see nothing at all enticing for Cynllwyd, I'm afraid -- though there were some will-making Edwardses at a farm called Pant Gwyn (which lies some way south-west of the village on the main road to Dolgellau).
All of which said, seeking further clues in the PRs about parents and collaterals probably remains the first priority for now.
Rol
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(Crown and other relevant copyrights acknowledged, including - but without limitation to - census information from wwwnationalarchives.gov.uk)
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24530
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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It looks like Llanuwchllyn to me on the 1851 census
My Llanuwchllyn PRs go to 1837, so it might be possible to discover if any of John Edward(s)'s relatives remained in the area.
Gadget
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