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Topic: look up of PRs please (Read 589 times)
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24512
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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Hi
As I said in my earlier message, the entry for Robert Edward was in the semi-patronymic form* - i.e. no surname was used in the register. Rather, it was written as:
John son of Robert Edward and Jane
and not
EDWARD(S), John son of Robert and Jane
*The semi-patronymic is half way between the full patronymic where if would be written as Robert ap Edward and the surname form of Robert EDWARD(S)
This means that checking is more difficult because at the time the registers of the Penllyn parishes seemed to vary between surname and patronymic usage in the entries. I've therefore had to check on the patronymic Robert Edward (also some of his offspring might have then become xxx Robert. There were no firm rules) and the surnames Edward(s) and Robert(s)
John Edward, bpt 1791, is the only child of Robert and Jane. However, there are three more baptism entries that are worth considering:
2 Nov 1792 Ellis s/o Robert Edward and Elizabeth, farmer, Cynllwyd
4 Jun 1794 Jane d/o Robert Edward and Elizabeth, Cynllwyd
14 Aug 1796 Jane d/o Robert Edward and Elizabeth, farmer, Cynllyd
I can't see a burial record for Jane or a marriage of a Robert Edward to a Jane or Elizabeth around that time. Neither can I find a burial for Robert Edward(s) to 1837.
This suggests that their residence in Cynllwyd may have been short lived and Robert Edward was a tenant farmer who moved on to a different parish.
The location of Cynllwyd means that they possibly could have moved to any of the other Penllyn parishes (the term given to the parishes around Bala Lake/Llyn Tegid) or to any of the NW Montgomeryshire parishes.
I shall have to think more about the range of possibilities but to try to chase any siblings of John would mean checking on both the Edward(s) and Robert(s) surname. I had to do this for a few of my lines and it takes quite a time to go from parish to parish checking and testing out lines. I'm afraid that it's too big a project for me to take on at the present time with my current commitments.
If I think of anything or find any more, I'll get back to you.
Have you found a marriage between John and Mary?
Gadget
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24512
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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I've been poking around trying to find any clues but not very much.
I've checked out the 1841 for Cynllywd and found only two Edwards that appear to be or have been farmers:
David Edwards, 75, Ind, HO107/1430/21/4/2
Owen Edwards, 75, farmer - HO107/1430/21/11/15
I can't see an obvious link.
I've checked Llangadfan and Llanwddyn 1841 but I don't see them.
I've checked both the Montgomeryshire marriage registers for a marriage between John and Mary and baptism registers for a baptism for son, Edward but can't find anything either. It's all very strange.
Gadget
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24512
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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All we have at the moment is an entry on the 1851 census giving John Edwards age as 59 and born Llanuwchllyn. We have two possible baptisms of a John to a Robert Edward (1791) and a John Edward (1792). In 1851 he is a farmer of 40 acres - quite a small farm. He was married to a Mary, b. Llangadfan and had a son Edward, aged 20 (b.c. 1831) b. Llanwddyn. There was also a nephew, Robert Evans, b. Pennant - who might have been mary's nephew. Again, on the 1861, there are two children aged 7 and 5, described as 'sons' to an elderly Mary (I can't remember her age off hand but i think she was shown as 54 on the 1851). That's basically the known facts.
I think if we could find a marriage between John and Mary (maybe as John Robert  ) or a birth for Edward Edward(s) b.c. 1831 it might help us to go forward. The marriage would show witnesses who might be related.
It might also be worth going through the 1841-1851 to see if there are any other people from Llanuwchllyn/Cynllwyd that might give a lead. Also, rather than using an index, it would be necessary to go through the relevant EDs. This is how I found the two Edwards families in Cynllwydd on the 1841.
I'm having problems posting this message as the site is very slow. I hope it gets through.
Gadget
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24512
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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I've been looking at the Robert Evans, nephew, aged 8, b. Pennant on the 1851. If we could get a hit on him it would lead us either to Mary or John's relatives.
Pennant was in the Llanfyllin RD at that time. If Ian could do some searches for a possible birth registration or chase him up on the 1861 or even look for possible parents on the 1841, it might lead to something.
Gadget
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slothbear
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 69
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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wow,thank you so much gadget and rol.
i didnt expect all this research you have both done,
i cant write how much i appreciate all the help.
im rather new to all this,i have done my own tree just from the census and gone so far in the PRs but thats it as i got stuck.
now after your kind advice helping me with my friends tree i may give it another go.
my friend will have a better family tree than me,although i think there seems to be not much else we can do
i looked on the census for robert evans the nephew,but im not sure it is of any help,also it doesnt help with there being two robert's from pennant ?
rg9 piece 4664 folio4 page 13
543259
rc9 piece 4264 folio1 page7
543259
i am also going to order a birth cert for robert edwards,to see for definate who the mother and father were
thanks again
ian
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24512
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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The one here:
RG9/4264/4/13
although a wee bit older than suggested by the 1851, has a mother, Elizabeth, b. Merionethshire, Llandrillio. It maybe just a coincidence because Llandrillio is at the East end of Bala Lake but it might be worth investigating.
Gadget
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24512
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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think I might have found them on the 1841:
Rhiwargor*, Llanwyddyn (I can't make out the name of the farm because the centre fold of the page is hiding half of it!)
HO107/1435/7/6/4
John Edwards, 50, farmer
Mary, 55
Mary, 11
Edward, 10
All but John b. Montgomeryshire
In the farm next to them is an Ellis Edwards, 48, farmer, also not born Montgomeryshire
* at the Northern end of Lake Vyrnwy and not very far from Cynllwyd - see map:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/06ul/
Gadget
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24512
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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What do you mean 'feathers in cap' - - I've just had a new hair style, Rol 
Tis my crowning glory 
Anyway, here's a nice little snippet:
Baptism , Llanuwchllyn:
2 Nov 1792 (b. 30 Oct) Ellis s/o Robert Edward and Elizabeth, farmer, Cynllwyd
I can't find a death for Jane or a marriage to Elizabeth but it does look interesting!
There was another Robert Edward (son of Edward Robert) who married a Magdalen. They also lived Cynlwydd around the same time.
I'm thinking that the Tithe maps, etc. might be worth looking at. I know from my 3 x great grandad's letters that there were lots of changes in the tenancies in that area 1830-1840s.
Gadget
PS - the 1841 is perfect for these two - taken in June 1841. John was b. April 1791 , so would be 50 and Ellis was b. Oct 1792, so would be 48 
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24512
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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I've just walked through the 1851 pages for Rhiwargor, Llanwddyn.
John and Mary have moved about 1 or 2 farms to Tirnant?. The next farm is Llwyngwern which might well be the one they were in on the 1841. Also, 2 households on are 'two houses uninhabited'. These could also be the places where the Edwards lived in 1841. It's difficult to tell.
I'm looking for Ellis at the moment 
Gadget
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24512
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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Found Ellis on the 1851 - 4 pages on - aged 58, born Llanuwchllyn 
HO107/2499/694/5
I think we're on the case
Gadget
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24512
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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This link is too good to disregard. I think I'll put my nose back into the Llanuwchllyn registers tomorrow. There were other children of Robert Edward and Elizabeth. So it looks as if John and Ellis might be relatives or , at least half brothers
Gadget
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24512
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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Full details of Ellis Edwards in 1851:
Ref as previous message.
Ellis Edwards, 58, farmer of 200 acres employing 2 labourers, b. Merionethshire, Llanuwchllyn
Mary, 47, b. Llanwddyn
Elizabeth, 22, b. -do-
Edward, brother, 54, b. Merionethshire, Llanuwchllyn
Evan Jones, servant, 47, farm labourer, b. Merionethshire, Llanfachreth
Richard Jones, servant, 19, farmer's wagoner, b. Merionethshire, Spitty (? Hafod y spitty, Ffestiniog)
John Gittins, daughter's son, 8, frmer's nephew?, b. Llanwyddyn
Griffith Roberts, servant, 14, farmer's srvant, b. Llanwddyn
Maria Roberts, servant, 20, house servant, b. Llangadvan/Llangadfan
Gadget
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24512
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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No sign of a baptism for brother Edward.
The Llanuwchllyn registers are a bit hit and miss around the mid-1790s and I think Edward might be in the indecipherable/ not recorded portion.
Gadget
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