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Topic: look up of PRs please (Read 577 times)
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Rol
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 86
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OK, new hairdo definitely counts as force majeure, so you're spared the cap, Gadget. But in the meantime at least another couple of feathers seem to have clocked up -- so you can always go retro and just put them in as a patriotic PoW's threesome! (Would have been just the thing for the pub in case HRH wandered in while holding summer court chez Myddelton. Yes, I already have a premonition of the shudders coming down the ADSL . . .  )
Back to Penllyn. I wasn't expecting much from the marriage licence front, but there is this allegation and matching bond in the NLW database, with an interesting bride's "surname":
EDWARDS, Robert, bach., Llanuwchllyn, MER. 1789, Nov 9. At Llanfor. Elizabeth Ellis. A,B. 116/76.
I think you have the CFHS Llanfor PRs, haven't you? Perhaps she went to mum's there to have her first child or two. (It would be a nice plus if they stated proper ages in that allegation, instead of just >21.)
Those two rival mothers Jane and Elizabeth do fog the visibility for now. If the 1789 Llanfor wedding between RE and Eliz. Ellis does indeed relate to the parents who produced Ellis on 30 Oct 1792, then it looks as though:
-- there were two Robert Edwards in Cynllwyd at the same time, one married to Eliz. and one to Jane; or
-- there was only one Robert Edward(s), and either
(a) John was an illegitimate child by Jane (and the clergyman was too drink-sodden to notice or abnormally uncensorious) or
(b) John was really the son of Eliz. and "Jane" was written in error (and the clergyman . . . &c.)
If the Llanfor wedding is for another Robert Edward(s) altogether, then one could also imagine a scenario where Jane died outside Llanuwchllyn because -- again -- she had gone to her parents for her first confinement and it all ended badly for her. But that does require RE to have been pretty quick in finding a new wife.
BTW, this is presumably the Robert who had paired off with a Magdalen (tho' still no obvious link apparent):
EDWARDS, Robert, bach., yeoman, Llanuwchllyn, MER. 1789, Sep 23. At Ll. Magdalene Owens. A,B. 116/40
Rol
P.S. the wagoner born "Merionethshire, Spitty" is a bit odd. Nine times out of ten when I see Spitty/Sputty as a parish name, the place meant is Ysbyty Ifan (Knights Hospitaller and all that); but Ysbyty -- although it borders co Merion to the south -- is half in co Denb and half in co Carn. I think one would need to find him in a later census if one wanted to unpuzzle that little side-matter.
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(Crown and other relevant copyrights acknowledged, including - but without limitation to - census information from wwwnationalarchives.gov.uk)
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24489
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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Nothing much in the Llanfor entry except date of marriage - 17 Nov 1789 and the witnesses - John Jones and Jane Ellis.
Is the Jane just a coincidence - could the vicar have mixed up the siters inthe baptism entry 
The Llanfor records are organised in the strangest fashion so it will take me a while to sort through them. It's as if someone has put them into Excel and started to do a coloumn sort and given up half way through 
I'm also interested in the John Gittins, aged 8, daughter's son who becomes farmer's nephew under occupation ithe 1851
Gadget
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24489
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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Oops - I nearly posted this on the Monmouthshire board (it's next to Merionethshire on the listing )
Continuing the Jane/Elizabeth theme, I thought that the names that Ellis named his daughters was interesting:
Households next to John Edwards on the 1841
? farm name. Rhiwargor, Llanwddyn
HO107/1435/6/4
Edwards
Ellis, 48, Farmer
Mary, 38
Jane,20
Elizabeth, 15
All but Ellis born county
Looks like next household but same address:
Edward Edward, 45, ag lab
Anne Jones, 42, farm servant
Evan Jones, 38, ag lab
John Jones, 18, -do-
Morris Williams, 13, -do-
all born out of county
I'd like to find a daughter, Jane or Elizabeth, to John Edwards. So far, I've not found anything but will do some more checking
Gadget
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slothbear
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 69
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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sorry for not replying earlier,
with work and trying to occupy my 9month old son,i just haven't had the time,
id like to say to say a big thank you to gadget and rol
i never expected in a million years to get the information you have found.
i cant put into words how grateful i am for your time you have taken in researching my request.
so if Ive read all your messages right john Edwards father was a Robert Edwards,but your not sure who the mother is Jane or Elizabeth,and they could of marry ed in llanfor.
and Ellis is a brother to john maybe am i right in saying that?
if I'm barking up the wrong tree,i am sure you can put me straight,
also when a ref number for the census is given,what site can i use these ref numbers to see the census?
thank you so much again
Ian
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24489
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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Hi Ian
I think that you've interpreted what's been found correctly. My suspicion is that the Jane entry in the parish registers is incorrect and it should have been Elizabeth but we have no proof.
It is strange that all three - John, Ellis and Edward - are living in neighbouring households in the 1841 and are all b. Llanuwchlllyn in the 1851. John and Edward appear in the baptismal records for Llanuwchllyn (with father listed as Robert Edward, farmer, Cynllwyd) but Edward doesn't, although shown as Ellis's brother.
Apparently the Llanuwchllyn registers were seriously damaged by damp, etc. at Aberystwyth and the late 1790s are very damaged.
I'll keep looking for more clues but it might take a while.
In the meantime, it might be worth you trying to get hold of a copy of the marriage bond that Rol refers to from the National Library. It may give more detail. The ones that I've obtained have given parents' names but I might have been lucky.
Gadget
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Gadget
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 24489
Holy Island - Pilgrims' Path
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A possible marriage of Ellis to Mary:
Llanwddyn, 26 August 1820
Ellis Edwards, otp, bachelor and Mary Morgans, otp, spinster.
witnesses - David Morgan and David Morris
Nothing so far for John and Mary. I'll keep looking
Gadget
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Rol
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 86
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Apparently the Llanuwchllyn registers were seriously damaged by damp, etc. at Aberystwyth and the late 1790s are very damaged.
Presumably the CFHS's intro confirms that they tried (in the usual way) to fill in the gaps from the Llanuwchllyn BTs, so those offer no additional hope of salvation?
That 1820 Llanwddyn marriage for Ellis Edwards and Mary Morgans looks quite promising.
Deeds (and possibly rentals) covering Eunant and surrounding farms, probably specifying tenants, seem to be in the Llwyn collection at the NLW. Eunant was owned by a Wynne family back in the 17th c. (and there is some not-wholly-reliable material about them in J Y W Lloyd's History of ... Powys Fadog: HPF iv 366-7). By the last quarter of the 18th c. it seems to have become part of the Llwyn (Llanfyllin) estate, the heiress to which married which was accumulated from the early 1700s by a Humphreys of Maerdy (alias Maerdu or Mardy) in pa. Gwyddelwern who had prospered as an attorney. Later in the 19th c. Llwyn etc. were bought by the Dugdales, who went on to put the deeds in the NLW. It is worth having a look at the Llwyn Collection hits for "Eynant" in this search** in the NLW's ISYS-Web database.
[Note for Ian (just in case you have not used ISYS-Web before!): you navigate from hit to hit by clicking on the red arrow after the search term to move onwards to the word's next appearance -- or on the arrow at the front of the word, if you want to hop backwards again; when you reach the end of the hits in one collection, the extra (green) arrow launches you across to the set of hits in the next collection -- if any.]
Comparison of the 1891 (pre-flooding) OS map on the Old-maps site with the modern Streetmap OS makes it fairly clear that the original Eunant (?alias Plas Eunant), the tenement seemingly occupied by Ellis Edwards at the time of the 1851 census, was submerged by the westernmost few hundred yards of Lake Vyrnwy, and the building now called Eunant was a replacement farmhouse, built further west along the side-valley.
John and Mary Edwards's 1851 farm very probably shared the same ownership as Ellis's. But has anyone yet located it on a map? If not, it could well have been allowed to tumble down before the OS set to work -- although it will doubtless appear on the tithe map.
I have now had a chance to see an actual image of their 1851 entry, and as Gadget's "?" implies in Reply 25, even the farm's name has been written badly. If the second syllable is "nant" (as seems likely), letter comparison suggests that the first syllable may well have been meant as "Tin", given the clear dot over the "i". Elsewhere on the page the enumerator seems reasonably at ease with Welsh forms, which makes "Tinnant" an odd spelling for him to use. But my guess is that he probably intended to convey a contracted version like Ty'n [y] Nant -- what a modern map would presumably have shown as Ty yn y Nant. (Pity it was not Ty yn y Coed -- a John Edwards of that place in Llanwddyn left an early 19th c. will: SA/1807/124.)
On the (intriguing) side issue of the wagoner's place of birth, new light may be shed by an article in NLWJ 1977, reproduced here in full on GENUKI: the Knights Hospitaller of St John of Jerusalem evidently had property at Llanwddyn too, where the name has survived (and is prominent on the modern OS, to the S-E of Eunant, on a ridge above the lake). But we still have the enumerator's "Merionethshire" to keep the waters a bit muddy . . .
Rol
** Sorry, 15 hours after posting as a working link, this one seems to have died. Probably the search files on the server are only allocated a short life before auto-deletion. Here's what I hope is a more robust way to get to the same place. Go to http://isys.llgc.org.uk/ and insert Eynant as the sole search term. Having clicked on the Chwilio/Search button, select search result 2. LLWYN 1. That should lead one to exactly where the broken link would have landed, so it is then just a matter of waiting for the page to load fully, clicking on the Hit cyntaf / First hit button and navigating onwards via the word-arrows in the text.
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(Crown and other relevant copyrights acknowledged, including - but without limitation to - census information from wwwnationalarchives.gov.uk)
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