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Topic: 1881 Census help (Read 283 times)
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Aks
RootsChat Member
Posts: 124
Photo - Annie Pomeroy
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I have been able to locate William H G Payne (b 1879 Chelsea, London) on the 1891 Census at Class: RG12; Piece: 47; Folio 110; Page 50 (London, Fulham, District 14), where his mother Mary A. Payne (b abt 1856 Oxford) and younger brother Frederick S Payne (b 1881 Chelsea, London) are also present.
I also found Mary and Frederick on the 1901 census at Class: RG13; Piece: 56; Folio: 138; Page: 68 (London > Fulham > North West Fulham > District 20).
I was very much hoping to find the family on the 1881 census, since the father might have been still alive then, but I cannot find them.
Is it possible that part of the Fulham census is either missing or not transcribed (on certain websites, such as Ancestry)? Of course, they may not have been there, but this seems unlikely as both sons were born in this area and they are there later. Alternatively, there might be a transcription error. Any suggestions as to how to find them would be appreciated.
Alan
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9415
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I have had no success finding them in 1881 either - yet!
But I also havent managed to find births for the two boys. Makes me wonder if they are from a previous short marriage or something and a different surname was being used in 1881? Just a remote possibility.
Have you found the births? I havent spent a lot of time on it, but nothing obvious with those middle initials.
Have you found what they stand for at all?
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9415
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I've now found this one - which has a lot going for it as they come from Oxford and are in Chelsea - but no small boy called William with them...
RG11 80 84 49
25 Gertrude Street Chelsea
William Payne 30 Butler bn Oxford
MAry A 27 wife bn Oxford
Elizabeth 5 dtr bn Oxford
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9415
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RG11 2006 24 3
there is a 3 yr old William Payne, bn Middlesex, with John and Ann Spinks, grandparents, in Norfolk .....
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Aks
RootsChat Member
Posts: 124
Photo - Annie Pomeroy
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Hi Lizdb,
In between your first and second replies, I found the mother on the 1881 census : I stupidly didn't look for her directly, as I was looking for William. However, I didn't see her husband as on ancestry, it came up with Mary as a single record.
I think the birth for William is in Mar 1879 in Chelsea, given as William Henry Payne : the additional George I have from other sources. Frederick Thomas Payne is in Jun 1881 in Chelsea.
There is no daughter with them on the subsequent censuses, and I wonder where William could be. Otherwise, it looks like it might be them.
Many thanks,
Alan
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9415
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The 1881 comes up with Mary as single record in the index, but if you look at the actual image there is the rest of the family there - the enumerator made an error and listed Mary, wife, first, then Wm head and Elizabeth dtr afterwards, but ammended his error. The indexers obviously didnt quite get the gist.
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Aks
RootsChat Member
Posts: 124
Photo - Annie Pomeroy
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There are a couple of William Payne's with reasonably close ages who died in Chelsea in the 1880s (Mary is a widow in 1891), so this seems a real possibility, especially if William (son) was with his grandparents. This is something to go on.
Very many thanks.
Alan
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9415
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A birth cert for a child would give MAry Ann's maiden name - if Spinks we are on the right track! But I am not convinced at present as Norfolk is a long way from Oxford....
I thought Fred was Frederick S on the censuses? Hence I didnt think Frederick Thomas birth was him!!!
Anyway, there are some possibiliites here, but will take some certificates and more research to confirm or deny this is the right lot.
Elizabeth (from 1881) will be 15ish by 1891 so could well be 'in service' somewhere by then, unless she dies pre 1891.
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Aks
RootsChat Member
Posts: 124
Photo - Annie Pomeroy
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Frederick is transcribed as Frederick S in 1891, but Frederick T in 1901. Yes, I will have to order the birth certificate for William (who somehow subsequently went to Canada and died in 1918 after serving in France in the Canadian armed forces, unless of course I have the wrong person).
Alan
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lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9415
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I saw he was indexed Fred T in 1901, but again I looked at the image and thought it was Fred S, tying in niceley with 1891.
But if it is Fred Thomas and you can get his birth cert then that will make life a lot easier! Or Williams, sorry, just seen you said you'd order Wms.
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casalguidi
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 11919
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As regards to Canada, these two look like they could be brothers - both going to Canada.
Frederick Thomas PAYNE born 22 April 1882 Oxford (wife Charlotte of 104b Alexander St, Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada 1915) http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-100.01-e.php
http://www.117thbattalion.com/748123Payne.htm
http://www.117thbattalion.com/748123Payne%20news.htm
Husband of Charlotte http://www.cwgc.org
William Henry George PAYNE born 4 Jan 1879 Chelsea (next of kin Charlotte PAYNE of 104b Alexander St, Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada 1915) http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-100.01-e.php
W H G husband of Elizabeth of 45 Walham Grove, Fulham http://www.cwgc.org
1911 - Sherbrooke, Canada
Frederick PAYNE 30 b.England emig. 1909?
Charlott wife 29 b. England emig. 1910
Manta?? (Manda?) dau 1 b.England emig. 1910
Frederick son 8 b.England emig. 1910
William boarder 32 unm b.England emig.1910
Province Quebec, District 198, district 5, enumeration district 15161718, North Ward of Sherbrooke
.......................
There is a marriage for a Frederick Thomas PAYNE with one of the two possible spouses being a Charlotte Catherine THOMPSON in the Fulham registration district 1902 http://freebmd.rootsweb.com 
What is your connection to the PAYNE family Aks ie. who are you definitely descended from and the most certain piece(s) of information you know about them?
Casalguidi 
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« Last Edit: Sunday 13 September 09 11:52 UTC (UK) by casalguidi »
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casalguidi
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 11919
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Passages to Canada:
Charlotte PAYNE 27 mar (to husband)
Manda 8m
Freddy 7
all C of E, all born England arrived in Quebec 5 Jun 1910 aboard the "Lake Champlain".
William PAYNE (to brother) 31 unmarried (to brother factory lab) C of E, born England to Sherbrooke, Quebec (coachman and to be same in Canada) arrived Quebec aboard the "Lake Champlain" 1 Aug 1910.
Frederick T PAYNE 28 married to Sherbrooke, a carman intending to be a labourer in Canada arrived Quebec 25 Jun 1909 aboard the "Sardinian".
Casalguidi
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Aks
RootsChat Member
Posts: 124
Photo - Annie Pomeroy
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Dear Casalguidi,
Sorry for the late reply. My connection is with William Henry George PAYNE. I will give you the details separately. I am writing this before looking at your links, so sorry if they are the same.
It seems that William was serving with the Canadian armed forces in France in WWI and in fact was killed in action : Cf http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=399500. In fact, this record is my primary source of information, although I have since found another at http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/base-de-donnees/cec/001042-119.01-f.php?&id_nbr=570845&interval=20&&PHPSESSID=qgk8bdjalavkj31mq3ltnmp920. It should be said that the person who gave me this information thought his first name was Walter, although she says this must be the person, i.e. William Henry George Payne, although the George does not appear in the birth index. I found his birth date to be 4 Jan 1879 in Chelsea, London, England, and he seems to have died on 22 Oct 1918 in Chelsea, so I presume he was repatriated wounded.
In fact, the information you provide looks very interesting, because in the detailed information given in the second link above (click on Recto du formulaire or back of document), William gives his next of kin in Canada as a Charlotte Payne, and I wasn't sure who this might be. However, it looks from your information that she might be his brother's wife. I believe that William was married to an Elizabeth, however I haven't yet found the marriage, but I have only just started this research. Also, perhaps he married in Canada. However, the CWGC record states that he is "Husband of Elizabeth Payne, of 45, Walham Grove, Fulham, London, England." On the other hand, in the Canadian record above, William stated that he was not married when he signed up, which seems contradictory.
I will take a closer look at the information you provided today. Unfortunately, I don't currently have access to the emigration records or foreign records on the genealogical website I subscribe to.
Thank you very much. I will reply again when I have digested your information.
Best wishes,
Alan
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