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Topic: Ann Getliffe (Read 264 times)
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Davidjnr
RootsChat Member
Posts: 203
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi, I have been completely flummoxed by the two individuals above who are a part of my family tree and wanted to enquire if anyone more experienced could help me.
Eliza Getliffe was born about 1868 (death unknown)
in Ashton, Lancashire, England.
She was married to John Unwin born 1857 (died 1902)
in 1890 aged 22 and together they had the following children:
Emma 1877 - (death unknown)
Sarah Ann 1880 - (death unknown)
Arthur William 1881 - (death unknown)
Martha Ann 1883 - 1942
George 1885 (death unknown)
John 1889 (death unknown)
Thomas (death unknown)
Ann 1900 (death unknown)
After John died in 1902 Ann remarried a George Brookes
born 1854 (death unknown)
George must have been married before as he had the following children
Ann 1901 (death unknown)
Solomon 1903-1956 who maried Frances Roberts
1911 – 1942
Back to Work:
Eliza's parents were:
Ann Walsh born about 1845 (death unknown)
John Getliffe born about 1835 in Derbyshire, England & died 1904
Ann and John were married about 1870 and had the following children:
Mary A 1867 (death unknown)
Eliza (Married to John Unwin above)
Thomas 1871 (death unknown)
Margaret 1873 (death unknown)
Catherine (death unknown)
John William 1880 (death unknown)
Can anyone help me find Ann Walsh's parents? Grandparents?Can anyone find the marriage of Ann and John?
David
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Davidjnr
RootsChat Member
Posts: 203
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Just Ann.
I cant find her parents?
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Davidjnr
RootsChat Member
Posts: 203
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Looks like I need to buy the certificate...
Can you check and find her children's DOB's and especially Eliza's details...
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AMBLY
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4580
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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FreeBMD - http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/
LancBMD - http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
CheshireBMD - http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/
Eliza's birth registration appears on FreeBMD and on the CheshireBMD, 1868.
Sorry, since you know both her parents names, I had assumed you already had her birth certificate.....
Looking at the 1891 Census for Eliza. Mrs UNWIN in Gorton:
RG12 / Piece: 3175 / Folio 47 / Page 32
Head: John UNWIN 34, Carter, b Macclesfield Cheshire
Wife: Eliza 23, b Ashton Lanc
Dau: Emma 14, b Gorton
Dau: Sarah Ann 11, b Gorton
Son: Arthur Wm 10, b Gorton
Dau: Martha Ann 8, b Gorton
Son: George 6, b Gorton
Son: John 2, b Gorton
Edgar Wm GELLIFFE 11, b Denton (no relationship stated, but suspect this is Eliza's brother, registered 1880 Ashton and on the 1881, as John William GETLIFFE. The "Edgar" bit could be a mistake by the enumerator
Per the 1891 - It looks like John UNWIN was married prior - and as at Census 1891 he and Eliza (who were married Dec Qtr 1890) were yet to have any of their own children
John and his first wife:
1881: 41? Wood Street - Gorton Lancashire
RG11 / Piece: 3904 / Folio: 41 / Page: 25
Head: John UNWIN 23, Smiths Striker? b Macclesfield, Cheshire
Wife: Sarah UNWIN 25, b Hulme, Manchester (abt 1856)
Dau: Emma UNWIN 4, Scholar, b Gorton
Dau: Sarah Ann UNWIN 1, b Gorton
Son: Arthur UNWIN 1? month, b Gorton
Gorton comes under the Chorlton Reg District.
DEATH: Dec Qtr 1889 - Chorlton 8c, 483 - Sarah Lucy UNWIN age 35 (born abt 1854)
MARRIAGE: Mar Qtr 1876 Chorlton - John UNWIN and Sarah Lucy JONES
(freeBMD and LancBMD)
The children of John UNWIN and Sarah Lucy JONES
Sarah Ann UNWIN - Chorlton - Sep Qtr 1879
Arthur William UNWIN - Chorlton - Jun Qtr 1881
Martha Ann UNWIN - Chorlton - Mar Qtr 1883
George UNWIN - Chorlton - Sep Qtr 1885
John UNWIN - Chorlton - Dec Qtr 1887 (only one I can see)
Cannot find a birth reg for Emma UNWIN b abt 1876/77 - suspect she was born before the marriage, and so may be registered as JONES.
There are other UNWIN babies born and died in Chorlton, who may also have been born to John & Sarah Lucy - and would account for the gaps in ther children's ages as seen on 1881/1891.
Cheers
AMBLY
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AMBLY
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4580
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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By 1901, John UNWIN and Eliza are showing in Gorton, South Manchester with just their own(?) 2 children:
RG13 / Piece: 3686 / Folio: 162 / Page: 38
Head: John UNWIN 47, General Labourer, b Manchester, Lancashire
Wife: Eliza UNWIN 33, b Ashton Lancashire
Thomas UNWIN 3, b Denton (comes under Ashton district)
Ann UNWIN 3 mths, b Gorton (comes under Chorlton district)
(noting John's age and pob are a bit out when compared to 1881/1891)
John's daughter Sarah Ann UNWIN, married Samuel Isaac GROVES in 1899 Chorlton (freeBMD & LancBmd). In 1901 the young Mrs Groves has her 3 younger UNWIN siblings boarding with her - can't find her husband though. There is a death recorded in South Manchester 1930, of a Samuel I GROVES age 55 (born abt 1875) which may be him.
1901: 7 Leach St - Gorton, Manchester, Lancashire
RG13 / Piece: 3688 / Folio: 110 / Page: 11.
Head: Sarah A GROVES 22, married, b Manchester
Dau: Emma GROVES 2, b b Manchester
Boarder: Arthur UNWIN 20, unm, Brickmaketrs Carter, b Manchester
Boarder: Martha A UNWIN 18, unmn, Cotton Mill Tenter, b Manchester
Boarder: George UNWIN 17, unm, Brickmakers Slacker, b Manchester
It's possible, John's son John UNWIN is this one in 1901:
1901 ; St Nicholas Industrial School - East Ham Essex
RG13 / Piece: 1607 / Folio: 92 / Page: 6
Boy Under Detention: John UNWIN 13, Scholar, b Gorton, Lancashire
I can't determine what became of John UNWIN's daughter Emma (or else she was the illigitimate daughter of his first wife Sarah Lucy). An Emma UNWIN did marry a Joseph ROONEY in Chorlton 1897, but I can't find them in 1901 (another Emma UNWIN married in 1898 Manchester to a Broughton Blackburn, but per Census, this Emma was born the 1850's).
But the intrigue comes now, regarding John UNWIN and his wife Eliza GETLIFFE.
Married in 1890 - yet by 1901 only 2 children apparent - a 3 yr old and a newborn??
They could have had children born and die before Thomas - but I can't find a birth rego for either Thomas or Ann. Something doesn't feel right here, does it? hmmm.....
Cheers
AMBLY
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AMBLY
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4580
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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You said John UNWIN, Eliza's husband died in 1902?
Do you know where? I can't find any DEATH on FreeBMD or Lancs BMD for him in or around that year.
There is a death of a John UNWIN in 1895, Manchester age 38 (born abt 1857).
Altogether:
the lack of birth rego for Thomas UNWIN abt 1898 and Ann UNWIN early 1901
the gap 1890 to 1898 between marriage of John & Eliza, to Thomas birth abt 1898.
the age discrepancy and pob discrepancy for John UNWIN in 1901 Census
the fact George BROOKES is suposedly born 1854 and would be 47 in 1901
the fact that there is no apparent death for John UNWIN 1902, but there is a good possible in 1895
There can be many reasonable, non-mysterious reasons for such 'discrepancies' but in this case - that's a lot of it all together in one group. So, I'm wondering: where do all your dates etc from?
ie: 1870 marriage of Ann WALSH to GETLIFFE, 1904 death of John GETLIFFE , 1902 death of John UNWIN ?
You say George BROOKES had 2 children Ann b 1901 and Solomon b Jun Qtr 1903 - whom he must have had with a first wife..
Do you have the 1911 Census for the BROOKES family?
Because I am wondering if, Ann UNWIN born 1901, age 3 mnths in the Census - was actually registered as Ann BROOKS, Mar Qtr 1901 Chorlton. ANd if "John UNWIN age 47" in that same Census is actually George BROOKES pretending to be Eliza's deceased husband - ie: telling a fib to cover for the fact he (George) and Eliza were not yet wed but had at least 1 child). Sounds far fetched...but  . Same, can't find Thomas UNWIN born abt 1898 under Ashton district - but there are 2 Thomas BROOK*S born 1899.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Davidjnr
RootsChat Member
Posts: 203
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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This is all very confusing I agree and a real mystery :-)
What GRO certificates would you recommend to resolve the mystery?
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AMBLY
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4580
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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Hi David
Gosh had to take a moment to get my own head round all that again - confused myself even!
So in descending order  in my humble opinion, certificates to prove the theories & mysteries are as follows:
But with the biggest mystery by far being George BROOKES/Eliza GETLIFFE-UNWIN union & issue - I'd go for getting 5) and 7c) first
1) MARRIAGE 1866
Ann WALSH & John GETLIFFE
To stablish: father's names and occupations.
May assist in tracing Ann's ca 1845 birth in Ireland.
2) DEATH 1884
John GETLIFFE
To establish: this is Ann's husband (whom you currently have as: death 1904)
3) BIRTH 1868
Eliza GETLIFFE
To establish: she is the daughter of John and Ann above.
4) MARRIAGE 1890
Eliza GETLIFFE & John UNWIN
To establish: their father's names and occupations.
To establish: John was a widower.
5) DEATH 1895
John UNWIN
To establish: if he is Eliza's husband (whom you currently have as death 1902)
if this is him in 1895, then the 1901 Census is "wrong" and strengthens the theory "John UNWIN" on 1901 Census is really George BROOKES.
6) MARRIAGE 1904
George BROOKES and Eliza UNWIN
To establish: marital status , his especially, since you've wondered if George was a widower.
I'm pretty certain I checked Census & if I was looking at the correct person, he was unmarried all the way up to 1891 - marriage cert will also establish father's name to help ensure the right pre 1901 Census for him is found)
7) BIRTHS
a) Ann BROOKS 1901 - if her mother Eliza nee GETLIFFE, perhaps formerly UNWIN
b) Thomas BROOKS 1899 (choice of 2?) - if his mother is Eliza nee GETLIFFE, perhaps formerly UNWIN
c) Solomon BROOKES 1903 - You know he's your line - but who is his mother down as on the cert? If the theories are correct, Eliza nee GETLIFFE should be his mother.
Let us know how you go on - love to hear about the solvings!
Cheers
AMBLY
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Davidjnr
RootsChat Member
Posts: 203
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Had all of those bar one noted with asterix in my family notebook that is bursting at the seams - the Brookes/Eliza is the most confusing but I did notice something today...
The Edgar John Gellife (Getliffe) on the 1891 Census when John Unwin and Eliza Unwin are wed living at 22 McCormacl Street may in fact be her youngest brother not her illegitimate son. His age and name match the 1881 census when Eliza is living with her parents John and Ann Getliffe at 9 Dane Street, Denton; where John Wm Getliffe is 1 month old.
Dave
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AMBLY
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4580
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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As an afterthought.....
When ordering certs, one can stipulate certain /proviso's criteria on the order, to avoid costly mistakes.
The 6) marriage 1904 is safe since the LancBMD entry lists Eliza under both GETLIFFE & UNWIN
But with the 7 a) b) c) set, it might be unwise to specify too much - since there is the probability a bit of fibbing has gone on OR there is even more mystery to unearth.
IF: Eliza is the mother of those 3 children - I think the only thing you can be certain of is the mother's forename has to be be Eliza and the father if listed, may be down as George BROOKES. But there'd be no telling if she set herself as unmarried BROOKES or Mrs George BROOKES, or if her former UNWIN or nee GETLIFFE names are mentioned at all.
BUT: There is also the possibility that Eliza is the mother of none of those 3 children and whilst, the father in that case should be George BROOKES the mother may be some heretofore unknown woman who we have not yet identified. I think this is unlikey however, for 7a and 7b given the 1901 Census.
Which is why I suggest Solomon to start with - since it appears he's definitely yours regardless.
If you wished to go further after that, I'd probably be inclined to take a chance on 6a) and not specify any provisos.
Cheers
AMBLY
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AMBLY
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4580
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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Hi David
yes, that was my theory for "Edgar" too (Reply #5)
Looks like the postie will be beating a path to you door - hopefully knocking down the mystery walls as he goes
Cheers
AMBLY
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