|
Pages: [1] 2
|
 |
|
Author
|
Topic: 39th Regiment of Foot (Read 453 times)
|
cassofromdyers
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 46
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi hoping someone can help. I have Joseph Howard arriving in Australia aboard 'Guildford' (On a birth certificate- Both parents)
Paylist- 'Men charged for first time additional pay 30/11/1813 - 24/12/1827 14 years service. (Copy from Mitchell Library Microfilm very poor)
Muster papers- Private 39th Company 5th 25th December 1824 to 24th March 1825 7 years service. He was also noted as being in Companies 10,4,9 & 8 from 25th December 1824 until discharged on 30th June 1832, 14 years service. Payment of 5 pounds on discharge to remain in Colony.
This information is conflicting. Does it sound right? Also was a wife and child allowed to accompany them.
Have not found where they came from. Joseph his wife Hannah (Dyer / Dier) and daughter Mary Ann arrived free.
Your site advised someone to see records at Kew. Don't know anyone in England. I live in Australia. Do researchers cost very much?
Wife Hannah's death certificate said married in Ireland.
Hope someone may be able to assist with this family.
Wendy
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
cassofromdyers
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 46
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Well Thanks for alerting me to this information. All that information was from my earlier (8-10years ago) research. It is obviously one of the cousins. No one told me they were putting it on the internet, and had they checked with me first they would know I have found new details. e.g Hannah died in Orange in 1873 and I believe (not yet proven) that this is the wrong Joseph's death in 1874. So I have to go back to find his origins. I have drawn blanks on death in Australia.
It is correct he obtained 40 acres in Myrtle Creek after being discharged from the Army.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
km1971
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2742
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi Wendy
There is no conflict. He served November 1813 to June 1832, unless this does not fit in with his age. The 7 years and 14 years service refer to Good Conduct Pay awarded after those periods had elapsed.
By Paylist and Muster I assume you are referring to the Muster Books and Pay Lists in Kew in series WO12. You need to go back to these as they should also tell you where he was each month. That is the best way to track his service. You can then look in the church records of the places he passed. Did you notice that the army were still using Julian quarters 70 years after we changed.
You can search for surviving papers (for men discharged before the end of 1854) on the NA Catalogue. His does not appear to have survived, so all you have left are the Muster Books and as you appear to have the information from these there is no point in taking on a researcher.
Regarding families, there does not appear to have been a lot of control then over men getting married. When they went overseas about 10-15% of wives went with them, with children and free passage. The rest were left to fend for themselves, although the men could send money back through the Pay Department. Later in the century they introduced quotas for how many men could marry. All senior NCOs (7 per battalion) had the right to marry, down to 40 out of c900 Privates. Potential wives had to provide a reference and be approved. But once accepted ‘on the strength’ all families went overseas with their husbands.
What was his age in 1813? Later musters give place of birth and age on enlistment. In these early ones you have to look to see if any of the sergeants were out recruiting and then look in those areas (if given) for his baptism. There is a lot of information in the musters that is not obvious and unless you search the whole ‘book’ you can easily miss something.
Ken
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
cassofromdyers
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 46
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Thank you for all that information. The details I have are meagre. I researched from our Mitchell Library in Sydney, and copied a quarterly pay-list from 25th September 1827 to 24th Decemer 1827, Ref. WO12 5262. It only had microfilm copies. Very poor condition. I found his name on page 225 under 'Number of each Class entitled to higher Pay from length of Service' 7 years Joseph Howard No. 37.
From Society of Australian Genealogists, 39th Dorset Regiment of Foot. Muster Papers Index to Personal
Sheet Number 39 - 314 & 315
HOWARD Joseph Pte
It starts with Company 5 25th Dec 1824 - 24th Mar 1825 7 years.
It continues on with each quarter but on the right hand side are 1st, 2nd 3rd Muster, Location/  ?
These are some of the details written in those sections:
Co. 5 & 10 25/3/'25 - 24/6/'25 Detachment MELLOW 13 Nov 1825
Co. 10 25/9/'25 - 24 Dec '25 DTS 'Duchess of York' 30 Sep - 12 Oct 1825
Co. 10 25/12/'25 - 24/3/'26 Sheerness
Co. 10 25/3/'26 - 24/6/'26 Under 3rd Muster 'On Duty'
Co 10 Next Quarter Then 10 & 5 Next Quarter
Co 5 & 4 25 /12/'26 - 24 /3/'27 New South Wales 07 Mar 1827
Followed by Co. 5, 4 9, & 8 until
1/4/'32 - 30/6/'32 Discharged 30th June 1832 On payment of 5.0.0
Please remember these are copies of very poor microfilm copies. Unsure I have written as it seems to me.
That is all I have.
Wendy
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
cassofromdyers
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 46
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Thank you for all that information. The details I have are meagre. I researched from our Mitchell Library in Sydney, and copied a quarterly pay-list from 25th September 1827 to 24th Decemer 1827, Ref. WO12 5262. It only had microfilm copies. Very poor condition. I found his name on page 225 under 'Number of each Class entitled to higher Pay from length of Service' 7 years Joseph Howard No. 37.
From Society of Australian Genealogists, 39th Dorset Regiment of Foot. Muster Papers Index to Personal
Sheet Number 39 - 314 & 315
HOWARD Joseph Pte
It starts with Company 5 25th Dec 1824 - 24th Mar 1825 7 years.
It continues on with each quarter but on the right hand side are 1st, 2nd 3rd Muster, Location/ ?
These are some of the details written in those sections:
Co. 5 & 10 25/3/'25 - 24/6/'25 Detachment MELLOW 13 Nov 1825
Co. 10 25/9/'25 - 24 Dec '25 DTS 'Duchess of York' 30 Sep - 12 Oct 1825
Co. 10 25/12/'25 - 24/3/'26 Sheerness
Co. 10 25/3/'26 - 24/6/'26 Under 3rd Muster 'On Duty'
Co 10 Next Quarter Then 10 & 5 Next Quarter
Co 5 & 4 25 /12/'26 - 24 /3/'27 New South Wales 07 Mar 1827
Followed by Co. 5, 4 9, & 8 until
1/4/'32 - 30/6/'32 Discharged 30th June 1832 On payment of 5.0.0
Please remember these are copies of very poor microfilm copies. Unsure I have written as it seems to me.
That is all I have.
Wendy
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
km1971
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2742
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi Wendy
There was a muster each month - hence the 1st, 2nd and 3rd musters. A blank means they were at the muster. 'On Duty' means he was on duty some place else. You also get 'sick', 'hospital', 'cells' etc. After each quarter the Muster Books were sent to London, and it is interesting to see how long they took to get there from the far-flung reaches of the Empire. Today they would be considered part of the audit trail. They ensured the regiment actually had the men it claimed to have. The first regimental numbers were introduced in the 1820s to further decrease the chances of fraud. They may have been officers and gentlemen, but the crown didn't trust them when it came to their money.
The main force was at Buttevant, Co Cork, from October 1824 to July 1825, then Cork until Sept 1825, so he must have been in a detachment at Mallow, which is also in Co Cork. They spent ten months in Chatham (with him in Sheerness for part of the time), before sailing for NSW in July 1826, with him on the 'Duchess of York'. Sometimes they just say 'At sea'. The 39th Regiment left NSW for India in July 1832, hence the reason he purchased his discharge then.
Are you able to look at earlier musters to see when he enlisted?
Ken
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
cassofromdyers
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 46
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Thanks Ken
I will not be going to Sydney for a while, but will check out as much as I can. When I first went did not understand system and just photocopied pages . As mentioned before very poor quality.
I had a seperate sheet, page 204 for 'Men charged for the First Time, for Additional Pay.
These were the names and dates on this sheet:
P & C Allen James 39th 17th Dec 1813 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
P Clunes (unsure) Michael 39th 2nd Dec 1820 - 24th Dec 1827 7 yrs
P Cook John 39th 29th Nov 1813 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
P Howard Joseph 39th 30th Nov 1813 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
P James (unsure) 39th Philip 10th Dec 1813 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
P Murphy Thomas 96th 13th July 1813- 16th Nov 1818, 39th 9th Feb 1819- 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
C Oatland (unsure) Charles 39th 3rd Dec 1813 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
C Petty Patrick 39th 17th Dec 1813 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
P Phillips John 39th 30th Nov 1813 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
P Pollard Samuel 39th 29th Nov 1809 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs dob 27th Nov 1795 (enlisted U/18)
P Stephens Benjamin 39th 7th Dec 1813 - 24th Dec 1824 14 yrs
P Stephens James 39th 30th Nov 1813 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
P Stott (unsure) John 6th Dec 1813 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
P Walker John 39th 30th Nov 1813 - 24th Dec 1827 14 yrs
P Williams George 39th (looks like) 10th Aug 18? dob 9th Aug 1818 (enlisted u/18) Completed 15 years ? 9th Aug 1827
Dated Canterbury this 21st day of Feb 1828
They all appear to have enlisted in November - December 1813. There must have been a drive for new soldiers.
I have not been able to establish his age. Children born in NSW were from 1830.
Don't know if this helps but thought maybe someone else might find a name.
Wendy
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
cassofromdyers
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 46
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
To all those who have tried to help me with Joseph Howard, Soldier of the 39th Regiment of Foot.
I was looking over all your replies. Age was mentioned. I just thought, that on the 'men charged for the first time, for additional pay, there was only Samuel Pollard listed as being Under 18 on enlistmeny, born 27th Nov 1795, 14 years service. Samuel enlisted on 27th Nov 1809. This would mean, according to my calculations, that Joseph Howard, when he enlisted on 30th November 1813 he had to be over 18 years of age. I believe he would have been born at least before 1795.
Do you think I am on the right track or am I whistling in the wind.
I expect that if he was born before 1795, then when his children (registered in NSW) were born he would only have been between 35 and 45 years of age. This sound very plausible. (At least to me).
I am now going to check if there are any records of birth for those on the list that enlisted around 1813.
Wendy
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
km1971
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2742
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi Wendy
Your post has woken me up to the fact I didn’t reply to your last one. I got sidetracked looking at the medal roll for the 39th Regiment. Yes you are quite right – he was over 18 when he enlisted.
The regiment was in Spain in November 1813. This shows that their Depot was in Canterbury at the time, which I didn't have, so thanks for that.
I have looked at the medal roll for the Peninsular Wars for the 39th. The medal was not authorised until 1847 and you had you be alive then, and apply, to receive one. He is not listed, so either he was dead, or he did not hear about it. There is a James Howard listed, so he might have been related.
Ken
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
cassofromdyers
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 46
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
oh Ken, please forgive my ignorance. I do not know anything about the military or how they worked. If the Regiment was in Spain in 1813, then how was the recruitment conducted? I do know from documents here in Australia, that Joseph Howard, private, left the 39th Regiment of Foot on the 30th June 1832 after paying 5 pound for discharge to remain in the Colony. I also know (fact) that in the 1841 Census in Australia he was a Myrtle Creek. He had a wife & daughter (7-14), who arrived free, 2 males & 1 female born in the colony 7-14 yrs. The children born in NSW were from 1827 -1835.
These are the details:CENSUS: 1841 Census. HOWARD Joseph, return 47 Myrtle Creek, County Camden, District Picton. Item ID (X949) p 73, Reel 2222.
Details on return for Joseph HOWARD of Myrtle Creek. Aged 7 - 14 years 2 males 1 female, Aged 14 - 21 years l female, Aged 21 - 45 years 2 males, 2 females. Married 1 male, 1 female. Single 3 males, 3 females. Free or born in colony 2 males, 1 female. Arrived Free 1 male, 2 females. In Private Assignment 1 male, 1 female. Religion Church of England 2, Roman Catholic 6. Occupations Landed Proprietors, Merchants, Bankers & Professional Persons 1, Shephers and Other in care of sheep 1, Domestic Service 1, All other persons not included in forgoing classes 5. Males 4, Females 4, Total 8. House 1 wood, Furnished 1, Inhabited 1.
So according to the 1841 Census, Joseph arrived in Australia with a wife Hannah nee Dier/Dyer daughter of a Tailor, and a daughter born before arriving in NSW in 1827. she was aged 7 -14 years in 1841.
Wendy
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
km1971
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2742
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi Wendy
When regiments were serving abroad they would leave a Depot back in the UK for recruitment and training. When they needed men in the battalions – the 39th Foot normally only had one battalion, but up to 1815 they had two – they asked the Depot to send them reinforcements.
Actually I have found some interesting pieces of information about Joseph Howard. He joined the 2nd Battalion at Winchester on 17 October 1815. It says he enlisted on 26th September 1815 at Gloster (Gloucester). So there is a discrepancy with what you have on the 'Men charged for the First Time, for Additional Pay’ page from 1827. He received a bounty of £2 15s on enlistment.
There was also a Private Moses Howard in the same battalion who was invalided to Chatham and discharged 30 November 1815. I wonder if they were related. Moses was a ‘7 year’ man, ie served between 7 and 14 years.
If you pm me an email address I will send what I have.
btw....P = Private, C = Corporal. Sergeants did not get service/good conduct pay. It was included in the ‘per diem’ rate. Basic pay for a Private was 1s a day, with 1d extra after 7 and 14 years.
Ken
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Broomie
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 3
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi Wendy,
I've just spotted your post. I can provide you with a little information on Joseph Howard. I've only today finished transcribing a diary kept by John Forbes, the Captain of the Guards on the convict ship, Guildford, during its 1827 voyage to NSW. He had command of the elite, grenadier corps of the 39th Regiment which was being transferred to NSW and was assigned to guard the convicts on the Guildford. He lists all the soldiers under his command. Among them was Private Jos Howard who was accompanied by Mrs Howard and one child. Most of the soldier's first names were abbreviated in this way. No further details are given. They sailed from the Nore at the mouth of the Thames on March 25,1827.
The only other major reference to the Howard family is this
Tuesday 10 April: "Mrs Howard brought to bed of a son last night."
and then rather obnoxiously....
Monday April 16: "Mrs Howards child died last night & was consigned to the fishes".
I believe this sort of flippant callousness was considered "cool" within his circle but he later shows a decent, caring side when one of his men falls dangerously ill. The 200 page diary gives a fair indication of his character and I'm sure that the flippancy was a facade: he would have been genuinely upset by the death. The child who died was definitely not the one listed as accompanying them, so one child arrived safely in NSW with them.
At the end of the diary he lists all of the soldiers who were punished for sloppiness, insubordination etc. The usual punishment was to stop their grog. Most of the soldiers get a mention but not Jos Howard. Clearly his behaviour was exceptional.
There are two other direct mentions of Joseph. Of the morning parade on July 11: "Mostly very clean - Webb, Howard & Lewis particularly so - Dean & Conway dirty - they ought both be got rid of useless vagabonds."
Finally on July 23, one day's sail from Sydney: "Paraded with clean packs in hand - Howard has lost one of his." No disciplinary measure was taken against him, I assume because Forbes would give such a good soldier the benefit of the doubt. The soldier's equipment didn't just disappear. It was either stolen or sold by the soldier to one of the convicts or crew members. Forbes would have assumed the pack was
stolen.
That's all, I'm afraid. They entered Sydney Heads early on July 25 and disembarked at 2PM, marching to the barracks with drums & bugles and the full regalia, letting Sydney know that the grenadiers had arrived.
I have to make a few corrections and add some footnotes to the diary then I'll pass it on to the National Library in Canberra. They have the original manuscript and hold copyright on its contents. I was allowed to photograph it on the basis that I'd do them the transcription, and was required, as are all people who examine their rare manuscripts, to sign an agreement to honour their copyright. I hope that they will soon make the diary available for download.
Doug.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
km1971
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2742
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi Doug
Welcome to the forum, and what an amazing first post. Finding a Captain's diary that mentions the Other Ranks by name must be very rare for the period.
It will be Grenadier Coy (ie Company) rather than corps. Each line regiment had a Grenadier company of the biggest fittest men. And I don’t believe the Captain was being either 'cool’ or callous about the death of the infant. He is just being ‘matter of fact’ in an age when 25% of infants died before reaching their first birthday.
Ken
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
cassofromdyers
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 46
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Doug, You found a goldmine. It must have been a pleasure to transcribe the diary. I am most greatful for that information. I know from the 1828 census that Joseph, his wife Hannah and a daughter, Mary Anne came free. This proves Mary Anne accompanied her parents aboard the Guildford. I hope this transcription will be available in the future. With the assistance of people from this site I now have more information on this elusive soldier and his family.
Again, thanks
Wendy
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2
|
|
|
|
|
