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Topic: Looking for Robert Welsh Bisset Russell & Margaret Hamilton's families. (Read 614 times)
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'Trish'
RootsChat Member
Posts: 227
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I wonder if anyone can help,
1. I have a marriage of Robert Welsh Russell to Margaret Hamilton 8th December 1911 at Whinston Villa Drumover Drive(?) Tollcross, Glasgow, on the marriage certificate it names Roberts parents as Joseph Russell, Iron Turner (deceased) & Janet Russell nee Robson, (also deceased).
Margaret Hamilton's parents are Hugh Hamilton, coal miner (deceased) & Jane Hamilton nee Jackson (deceased). Robert's occupation is given as Railway Guard.
2. Margaret's birth certificate: (known as Maggie) born 22nd March 1881 parents James Hamilton Tailor journeyman & Jane Hamilton nee Clark.
I found a Hugh Hamilton & Jane Jackson marriage 17th March 1876, parents: William Hamilton coalminer & ?. Jane Jackson's father John Jackson Powerloom Tenter and ?. Both mothers not named.
3. I cannot find Robert W B Russell's birth abt 1877 and with such a distinct name you would think he would be easy to find, however I have found him on the Census for 1891 at 338 Duke street where he is age 13 living with his mother Janet born c1841 Glasgow and grandmother Catherine born c1808 Glasgow.
I wonder if anyone can help me through this maze? Maybe progress this family back a couple of generations. I have been trying to sort this out for over 8 years but cant seem to take it back even a generation. I would welcome any assistance.
regards Trish
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Fear, Puddy, Bunn, Hemsbury - Wedmore Somerset. Watts - Romsey Hants, Frome Somerset, Warminster Wilts & Wokingham Berkshire. Roberts - Newport, Stone Glos, Austin - Blaina Monmouth.
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9213
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Hi Trish
I haven't got any firm answers but wondering if you might have made a few steps out of your line!
The 1891 census that you have for a Robert with mother Janet and grandmother living with them. It also shows a sister Catherine b. 1880 in Glasgow. I think this may be that family in 1881 but father does not show as Joseph as you can see. Everyone below showing as born in Glasgow:
Robert Russell 39, Coach Body Maker
Jessie Russell 36
Robert Russell 3
Catherine M Russell 10 Months
Address: 14 Mathieson Rd, Kelvin Glasgow
You have the 1891 census entry and then I think this is them in 1901:
Jessie Russell 57
Robt Russell 27, railway porter (which fits with his occupation on his marriage entry)
Kate Russell 19
Address: 17 Brown St, Milton Glasgow
Have you looked for possible death certs for mother Jane Rob*son/Russell? It's a good fit except for the issue of Robert's father's name (Joseph v. Robert) and also father's occupation.
I cannot see a marriage between a Joseph Russell and Janet Rob*son though on SP 
Also, a little confused on Margaret Hamilton. From her marriage cert, it shows her parents as Hugh, a coal miner, and Jane Jackson. But the birth cert you quote for a Maggie in 1881 shows different parents? This doesn't sound like your Margaret Hamilton's birth.
You say you gone on to look at the marriage of Hugh Hamiton and Jane Jackson in 1876. Did this show the right occupation for Hugh? What were their ages and maybe we can find them on the censuses. What was daughter Margaret's age from her marriage entry in 1911?
Sorry, lots of questions!
Monica 
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9213
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I wonder if this could be a young Margaret with parents in 1891:
Hugh Hamilton 39, coal miner b. Armadale, Linlithgowshire
Jane Hamilton 39 b. England
William Hamilton 13 b. Crofthead, Linlithgowshire
Agnes Hamilton 9 b. England
Margaret Hamilton 5, b. Motherwell, Lanarkshire
Hugh Hamilton 1 b. Rutherglen, Lanarkshire
Address: 105 Kidston St, Hutchesontown, Glasgow Govan
Possible for Margaret, down as Maggie, for 1901 staying likely at her brother William:
William Hamilton 22, coal miner b. East Benhar, Linlithgowshire
Lizzie Hamilton 20 b. Glasgow
Lizzie Hamilton 7 mo b. Hamilton, Lanarkshire
Maggie Hamilton 16, visitor, Domestic Servant, b. Motherwell, Lanarkshire
Address: Front Single Row Ferniegair, Hamilton
Monica
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9213
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A possible entry for the family down in England for the 1881 census, down in Harrington, Cumberland:
Hugh Hamilton 27, coal miner b. Scotland
Jane J. Hamilton 29 b. Carlisle, Cumberland, England
William Hamilton 4 b. Scotland
Jane Hamilton 2 b. Scotland
RG11; Piece: 5182; Folio: 76; Page: 22
Monica
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9213
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Someone else who has been researching the same line here on RC some time ago:
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,25671.0.html
Don't think the original poster is on the right line for potential parents for Hugh given he shows as born c. 1852, a good 15 yrs before the potential marriage she is quoting for his potential parents.
It does however include details of Maggie's birth
Monica
Added: The name Robert Welsh Bisset Russell began to ring bells in my head  www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,226448.0.html
Have you seen this entry on www.curiousfox.com/history_S/lanarkshire_18.html
Robert Welsh Bissett Russell m margaret Shirley Hamilton 11/12/1911. re birth and marriage of Robert. I have a Robert Welsh bissett in my family tree died in Dumfries 1959 who was married and widowed in 1910 to Robina Gardiner Kirk. Listed as Railway Goods Guard on death cert of Robina and marriage certificate. Mother Janet Bissett birth certificate lists as illegitimate. Family did live in Old Monkland Or Coatbridge abt 1841 COULD THIS BE THE SAME PERSON?
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'Trish'
RootsChat Member
Posts: 227
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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[i]'Robert Welsh Bissett Russell m margaret Shirley Hamilton 11/12/1911. re birth and marriage of Robert. I have a Robert Welsh bissett in my family tree died in Dumfries 1959 who was married and widowed in 1910 to Robina Gardiner Kirk. Listed as Railway Goods Guard on death cert of Robina and marriage certificate. Mother Janet Bissett birth certificate lists as illegitimate. Family did live in Old Monkland Or Coatbridge abt 1841
This lady, I have spoken to and have exchanged info, but there is a slight discrepancy on one of our family trees, I have Catherine Robertson as Janet Russell nee Robertson's mother, Catherine born c1808. For some reason, I believe we are talking about two separate families, and for some reason this lady has believed that Robert Welsh Bissett Russell married Robina Gardiner Kirk before marrying Margaret Hamilton. This ladies RWB Russell was born in Dumfries not Glasgow. This is what I am trying to sort out, please can you confirm the marriage/marriages of RWB Russell?
My RWB Russell ( I am told by family) died in c1930, but as yet found that either! Maggie took the boys and Ellen and moved to Dublin, when Ellen was about 9, they had to return to Glasgow because Robert had died. So if Ellen was born 1921 and she was 9 when RWB Russell died then that would make the death c1930.
Anyhow, I have a copy of the birth cerficate of Margaret Hamilton (my sisters copy) and I dont believe this is the correct Margaret Hamilton:
Firstly, her middle name is Shirley
secondly father is called James Hamilton and the mother Jane Hamilton nee Clark married June 7th 1867 Glasgow.
On Robert's and Maggies marriage certificate it gives Hugh as the father and Jane Hamilton nee Jackson as the mother.
This family is a complete mystery - Robert and Maggie, I am told had four children, Herbert, Robert, William and Ellen, the only birth I can find is Ellen's in 1st June 1921 at Craigmore Street, Glasgow. So I believe that the boys were born between 1911 to 1921, as Ellen is the youngest.
Thanks for the info, it certainly helps, but is it possible to find the grandparents and family of Robert and Maggie?
regards Trish
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Fear, Puddy, Bunn, Hemsbury - Wedmore Somerset. Watts - Romsey Hants, Frome Somerset, Warminster Wilts & Wokingham Berkshire. Roberts - Newport, Stone Glos, Austin - Blaina Monmouth.
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'Trish'
RootsChat Member
Posts: 227
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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To continue Maggie was it looks like 35 but the writing is appalling, but is probably 25, in 1911 and Robert WB Russell again looks like 34 but I believe it is 24.
Monica, this whole family has been an absolute nightmare, when my mother was alive, I couldnt get anything really out of her about her family, she knew she had brothers but couldnt remember who they married, where they lived and when they died, other than she believed one was in the Army, one was in the Airforce and one was in the navy. One or two or three died during the WW2. When Ellen and her mother was living in Ireland, she couldnt remember if her brothers were with her. But she remembered the name of the school she attended and that at 86 was pretty brilliant.
Ellen said her father wasnt with them in Ireland, that he was a member of the Irish guard (?) and had handlebar moustache and two tattoes, 'compowell of India ( ?) and another. I havent been able to work that out yet.
So you see, it hasnt been easy trying to work this out and as I have said its taken me years to go absolutely no where.
I believed my mother knew alot more that she was letting on. I think there may be a 'dreadful secret', I thought originally that she maybe illigitamate but I have her birth certificate and that is not so. So, I wonder what kept her silent for so long.
Regards Trish
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Fear, Puddy, Bunn, Hemsbury - Wedmore Somerset. Watts - Romsey Hants, Frome Somerset, Warminster Wilts & Wokingham Berkshire. Roberts - Newport, Stone Glos, Austin - Blaina Monmouth.
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9213
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Hi Trish
Can we take this in stages otherwise it gets confusing
Firstly, on ages on the marriage cert for Maggie and Robert. Did you get this image from SP? You could contact them on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/contactus/form.aspx?issue=24 If you tell the areas you are having problems making out (ages for example) they can send you an enhanced image via email which in most cases makes the writing much clearer.
Can we try working firstly with Maggie and establishing her family. From her marriage cert you had details of her parents, Hugh Hamilton, a coal miner, and Jane Jackson, both deceased at the time of her marriage in 1911. Don't understand the focus on the other Margaret Hamilton with different parents
We have found a Maggie Hamilton with parents Hugh, a coal miner, and Jane (Jackson) in the censuses (from the earlier posts) and also you have their marriage cert. From the link of the old RC post I gave yesterday we have:
I am looking for the parents of Margaret (Maggie) Hamilton born 11th Sept 1884 North Motherwell Colliery, her parents are given as Hugh Hamilton & Jane Jackson. Hugh was born around 1850's Armadale West Lothian. Jane was supposed to have been born around 1850 in England according to 1891 & 1901 Census.
This very much fits with what we are seeing on the censuses. Maggie's age of possibly 25 in her marriage entry would very much fit with all the details above.
Where and when did Maggie die?
You have obviously thought long and hard over the years on this Trish. Why don't you think the above info is for your Maggie?
Monica
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'Trish'
RootsChat Member
Posts: 227
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I think the othre Maggie is the wrong one, I think I got mislead by this. So I shall put it away and forget it.
I tell you what I do have, Maggie Hamilton born 11th Sept 1884 at North Motherwell Colliery(?) I was given this. She died 3 Nov 1956 a Glasgow Royal Infirmary age 70. On the death certificate it has usual residence 10 A George Street, apparently this was amoungst slum housing in glasgow. She died of Chronic Bronchitis which she had for a year, and also Carcinoma of Lung which she had for 3 months. Now the next bit I'm not a hundred percent about, Maggie's siblings were William born 22 Apr 1877 East Benhar, Fauldhouse, and from your census he married a Lizzie born 1879 Glasgow and they had a daughter Lizzie born 1900/1. Also from census Agnes born 1882 England (possibly Westmoreland, Cumberland) there is also another brother Hugh born 7 August 1889 Rutherglen 31 Kings St, attended father's death living at 23 Raith Place, Palace Colliery, Bothwell.
Going back a generation to Hugh Hamilton b c1843 Aramadale, West Lothian, married 17th March 1867 Springburn, Glasgow, coalminer he died 7th July 1910 at Hamilton age 64. Then to his wife Jane Jackson born c1845 Harrington Cumberland, died 20th Sept 1905 Shettleston age 60, of 79 Easterhill Street, Tollcross, cancer of the liver 4mths.
Jane's father was John Jackson, a powerloom tenter, I dont have anything else, no known mother. Also dont know who Hugh's parents were.
This evening I took a look at Freecen anf found in 1881 Census:
Concrete, Harrington RG11 5182/76 Page 22
Hugh Hamilton H M age 27 born Scotland, Coalminer
Janet Hamilton W F age 29 born Carlisle
William Hamilton son U M age 4 born Scotland
Jane Hamilton u F age 2 born Scotland
What I would like to find is the wife of John Jackson, and any siblings to Jane Jackson, I would also like to find the children of Maggie and RWB Russell, (as this has plagued me for so long). I would also like to find Hugh Hamilton's parents and would like to find out when RWB Russell died (maybe his daughter was right - but I am thinking of the other connection - that RWB Russell may have been married twice, there is something there, that prevented his daughter talking about it).
Maybe I am expecting alot but am greatful for any breadcrumb which might point me in the right direction. It seems that you may have hit the nail on the head with the census. But at one time I did wonder if their was such a person as Robert Welsh Bissett Russell - its so distinct that I couldnt understand the inability to find him.
According to the other researcher, RWB Russell was married for a year, his first wife died and then he married Maggie Hamilton. Which is possible as he was in his mid 20's when he married Maggie. I also though that they both had lied about their parents on the marriage certificate.
Thanks for what you have done I am eternally greatful.
Whats the saving 'What a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive'. I truly believe that Ellen knew about her family but wouldnt say. I would love to show my siblings the truth about Ellen & her family.
regards Trish
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Fear, Puddy, Bunn, Hemsbury - Wedmore Somerset. Watts - Romsey Hants, Frome Somerset, Warminster Wilts & Wokingham Berkshire. Roberts - Newport, Stone Glos, Austin - Blaina Monmouth.
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9213
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Trish
I was just about to post this when your last post came up, so I will leave as is.
Regarding Robert, he's not so straight forward is he!
Where did he use his full name of Robert Welsh Bissett Russell? Was this from his marriage entry?
Why do you think he was born in the Glasgow area? There is nothing yet confirmed for him in either births or censuses. I would say at this stage, he could have been born anywhere.
If his age is 34 at marriage, then that lead us to a c. 1877 birth. If 24, then that's a different set of searches. Would be good to have a clearer image from SP so that you can be more certain.
His parents, both deceased by the time of his marriage show as Joseph Russell, an iron turner, and Janet Robson.
I am not at all conviced by that family in Glasgow in 1881, headed up by a Robert Russell 39, Coach Body Maker by trade. Both name and occupation are out. The father was certainly Robert (not a mistake on the entry) as Mo, on your previous post linked above, kindly looked at some images for you. She found the marriage between this Robert Russell and Janet Robertson in 1877 and I believe she sent you the image.
Why do you think this might be your Robert? I note that mother Janet is showing as Robertson.
Again, from MO's work in 2007, she found the illegitimate birth of a Robert Welsh Bisset, to a Janet Bisset, in 1877 in Troqueer, Kircudbright. What is interesting about this info from Mo is the additional details she found. Janet Bisset had a number of illegitimate children apart from Robert WB. She had a son Joseph Bisset, who when he married under the name of Joseph Russell showed (again quoting from the info posted by Mo):
Joseph Bisset Russell aged 21 marries Janet Edgar Milleraged 20. on 11 November 1887 in district of Dumfries. His parents are Joseph Russell and Janet Bissett
I believe Mo also sent you this image. what was the occupation for the father Joseph Russell on the above cert?
I did think back in 2007 that this Robert was highly likely to be your Robert. Quite often in illegitimate births, the child goes by both surnames of mother and reputed father. In later life, they also very often switch to father's surname. It is an unusual set of names and you have them here in this family. The only thing that didn't fit was mother's surname Bisset v. Robson.
This lady that you have made contact with on Curious Fox. What is her connection to Robert WBR? What info does she have on a possible death for him in 1959?
Given his age and the marriage date of 1911, it is not surprising that he may have been married before. The date of first wife's death fit well within the time line. His occupation also fits well with that showing on his marriage cert with Maggie in 1911.
The other confusing part is also what happened to the family between your mother's birth and then the move to Ireland and back. As you have found, it was probably a confusing sad time for your mother that she did not want to remember. On this basis, I would treat the story of her returning to Glasgow area for her father's death c. 1930 with some caution.
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'Trish'
RootsChat Member
Posts: 227
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I have taken another look at the ages of RWB Russell and Margaret Hamilton on another copy which seems to be clearer, so I think you are right with Robert being 24 and Maggie being 25. I certainly agree with the time scale of Robert possibly being married before Margaret, but what we dont agree on is the grandmother of Robert WB Russell.
I have spoken to my sister and she says the reason why she was centrering on Glasgow was the family story that they were born and lived in Glasgow. But on speaking to another relative, he says that Robert was born in Dumfries, now if this is so, then there is a good chance that Maggie is probably right, and that Robert was first married to Robin Gardiner Kirk. Certainly both Roberts seem to work for the railway. The only info I have on RWB Russell is on the wedding certificate using Robert Welsh (Welch) Bissett Russell. I did wonder at one time if it was a name he dreamt up, making himself seem important, or that it was an alias. I wasnt quite convinced that Maggie and I were talking about the same RWB Russell. However, there must be a way to proove that they are one and the same, and that Maggie hasnt just latched onto 'my RWBR'. How do I go about either confirming or denying the connection? But how do we go about confirming the grandparent? As Maggie has a completely different name from me.
There is also the death of RWBR again we disagree with the date, but Ellen was so definate in her age when she returned to Scotland because her father died. However, doesnt it seem rather strange that they left RWBR in Scotland when they went to live in Dublin.
Also, another of the jigsaw is the occupation of RWBR's wife whilst in Dublin, apparently she worked at a castle (name evades me at mo but was suppose to be owned by a Mr O. Hamilton).
On speaking to another relative in South africa about Ellen's life in Dublin, and on mentioning the name of the person who owned the castle, I was met with the query, 'thats strange - my son's family tree project from school, Ellen had enter the name of the owner of the Castle - Mr O Hamilton, as Magaret's mother', so strangely the owner of the castle - male had then become female! 
The lady on Curious Fox never replied, and I tried several times.
The mind boggles
Regards Trish
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Fear, Puddy, Bunn, Hemsbury - Wedmore Somerset. Watts - Romsey Hants, Frome Somerset, Warminster Wilts & Wokingham Berkshire. Roberts - Newport, Stone Glos, Austin - Blaina Monmouth.
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9213
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Hi Trish
If we have the right Robert WBR, on his marriage the age should be 34 which then fits that 1877 birth for a Robert Bisset, with mother Janet Bisset.
Have you looked at the death cert of the Robert Russell mentioned in 1959 in Dumfries to see what it says? The 1911 census for Scotland, when it is released, may help in placing Robert once and for all in terms of birth place, age and occupation.
Just something to think about. Always the possibility that Robert and Maggie parted ways after the births of the children. Divorce was not practical for many people in those days. May explain some of the things that happened at that time and why so little is known about Robert WBR in later years.
Trish, in respect of the children of Robert and Maggie. You are outside the period where you can view births on line at Scotlands People. It's an expensive and sometimes fruitless exercise to try and guess births and then have to order them at £10 each, only to find they are the wrong ones. Are you based in Scotland or elsewhere. Just wondering whether you have the option to visit any of the centres (e.g. Glasgow or Edinburgh) and view these more modern certificates on line there.
Monica
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9213
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No one has located the 1959 cert in Dumfries either ?
Needle in a hay stack sometimes!
Monica
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9213
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Just picking up on the earlier post. There are at least 75 deaths for a Robert Russell between 1921-60 in his age range....certainly one to look up at a genealogy centre in Scotland!
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